Atheism/Theism thread

[Senip]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

the most annoying thing about these debates is you always get people who lord their X over you, regardless of whatever it is.

you get the super christians going "Well i'm going to HEAVEN so fu!"
and then you get the athiests bashing the unholy shit out of people because "they buy into the idea of eternal damnation."

I'm almost certain that Mother Theresa and many, many other people were not intimidated by the idea of burning in hell, but rather that they felt so purely about whatever they supported that they did the amazing things they did. just because you got threatened by it, doesn't mean it's the same thing for everyone.

[Choofers]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Everything is gold.

[devonin]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

the most annoying thing about these debates is you always get people who lord their X over you, regardless of whatever it is.

you get the super christians going "Well i'm going to HEAVEN so fu!"
and then you get the athiests bashing the unholy shit out of people because "they buy into the idea of eternal damnation."

I'm almost certain that Mother Theresa and many, many other people were not intimidated by the idea of burning in hell, but rather that they felt so purely about whatever they supported that they did the amazing things they did. just because you got threatened by it, doesn't mean it's the same thing for everyone.

And if you think Mother Teresa wouldn't have been a good person, if it weren't for the Catholic Church teaching her how to act, I'm not sure what to say to you.

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, or that you will be rewarded/punished in that afterlife, religion as a moral force doesn't do anything that can't be done secularly as well.

[Syhto]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

She had a personal relationship with God.

[BahamutZER0]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Isn't everyone supposed to have a personal relationship with god?

[Senip]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

And if you think Mother Teresa wouldn't have been a good person, if it weren't for the Catholic Church teaching her how to act, I'm not sure what to say to you.

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, or that you will be rewarded/punished in that afterlife, religion as a moral force doesn't do anything that can't be done secularly as well.

I realize that, but the thing is that if you throw out all or nothing phrases like that, then what are we supposed to think?

'oh look crazy athiest guy just bashin on Christianity' or 'crazy christian being christian lol what a ***'

[devonin]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

I said exactly what I meant. You're supposed to think I meant exactly what I said, and then critically evaluate it and respond.

[adlp]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest

there are cases where this would be correct and cases where they are not correct

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules.

lol you might be pretty dense if you really think that. stay tuned for official diagnosis

The only people who would behave poorly if it weren't for religion teaching them to act well are the ones who buy into the threat of punishment in the afterlife if they don't

yeah you're pretty dense sorry bub

[devonin]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Thanks for attacking my points and not me personally, adlp. It speaks to your maturity.

So how is that dense? Secular humanism is perfectly capable of suggesting courses of action that society generally deems "good" Things like not killing, not stealing, not assaulting people, things like showing respect to others, and their rights and agency.

These are all things that don't require religion to be modes of behavior you learn to adopt.

So anybody who is capable of being a "good" person can come to goodness through entirely secular means, they don't require God and the Bible to teach them that these are good actions.

And anybody who is NOT capable of coming to goodness on their own, pretty much by definition, need an outside influence to make them be good. And the ONLY outside influence that is granted by religion that is not granted via secular humanism is the promise of reward and threat of damnation in the afterlife.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Mother Teresa was a pretty despicable person once you get around to reading about what she actually did

[Coolboyrulez0]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Mother Teresa was a pretty despicable person once you get around to reading about what she actually did

yup, she had a sort of suffering fetish to "become closer to god", and projected this upon others.

[goose_goldwing]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

so, i believe in the supernatural spaghetti monster, so therefore he is my god. He is not any more godly then simple ghosts, who are also supernatural beings. All of us have GOD in it, and thus, GOD must be the most BASIC form of elemental/particle subunit. Therefore, no matter what you are, your most substantial and basic building block which forms life...is spaghetti and meat balls. You are all food in my eyes, and it makes me very hungry knowing how much yummy tamata sauce you possess. This means that I am also GOD, and I use my powers to put you all in my stomach, and then. . . .I eat myself.

Wrath of Spaghetti Gods ^

[Reincarnate]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

there are cases where this would be correct and cases where they are not correct

Not all distributions are built equally. i.e. this is a false equivalence. You'll find correct/incorrect cases on both sides, but not necessarily in equal number or magnitude.

lol you might be pretty dense if you really think that. stay tuned for official diagnosis

Except he's right.

Even right here in this very thread (prime example being JJTrixX's recent posts), you've got people who say "If you're an atheist, you don't have any moral code / humans are incapable of morality without God."

And so if you, personally, agree that theists aren't being moral because the Bible tells them to (nevermind the fact that it explicitly says you go to hell otherwise), then the same applies to atheists.

People don't get their morality from the Bible. At the end of the day, we're all human, and anyone who claims to have heard God's demands is indistinguishable from someone who is just making things up (further substantiated by the odd notion that people who claim to hear God tend to align the motives with their own -- and how different people apparently hear God differently).

Watch:

[Choofers]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Anyone who believes you can't be moral without religion, I have a question:

If your god commanded you to kill someone with what you deemed a justifiable reason, would you do it?

[FFRN00B90210]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

my ultimate frustration is the slow transition from theism to agnosticism or atheism (in the US especially). a god probably doesn't exist, and in the context of manmade religions, it certainly doesn't exist. it's upsetting this "debate" has to happen time and time again with the same arguments made, only for someone to waste their time combating it. i assume once older generations die out the process will accelerate. anyone reinforcing the idea that a god exists, at least within the context of our world religions, is doing the rest of the world great injustice. this country still votes people into office that believe in a god, that alone speaks volumes. pathetic.

edit: it's not even worth making this moral vs. immoral argument, it's stupid and wrong.

and for whatever else:

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules."

okay, sure. this does not apply to everyone that is christian however, which is what adlp is likely arguing. a lot of religious people operate similarly to people that aren't religious. you'll find the dumber, and more extreme cases will adhere to something like this. it doesn't take away from the fact i think religion is stupid however.

Anyone who believes you can't be moral without religion, I have a question:

If your god commanded you to kill someone with what you deemed a justifiable reason, would you do it?

you already know you're going to get a dumb answer

edit: i'm also tired of all these formalities when arguing the existence of god. i.e. arguments have become very technical and content based, not concise and logical. people years ago that formed these religions have less insight than we do now about life in general - and we still have very little insight relative to what *could* be known. this idea that supernatural things occurred is nonsense. i've grown very abrasive when discussing religion with anyone because i'm tired of hearing and responding to the same shit. i long for a moment in the future where everyone looks back and laughs.