Atheism/Theism thread

[Ohaider]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

oh Shit did i just get Called Out

i nostalgiad all over the place when i saw you avi

jesus christ

[gnr61]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

i've always been kind of baffled by the idea that atheists inherently lack a moral backbone. if the only reason for your morals existing is that they're written out for you from on high, then they must be intrinsically totally arbitrary. or else they must have some kind of extradivine rationality to them, in which case they can be realized and followed independently of whether someone ascribes to that theology. morality is a moot point in arguing for the existence of god

[book]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

[rushyrulz]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

faith and other words

I basically condensed and compiled some walls of text from other threads on this topic mainly from cry4eternity and rubix, here ya have it:

I'm Gonna talk a bit about faith as a concept. The dictionary definition of faith is “belief that is not based on proof.” Personally, when dealing with topics such as these I prefer to replace the word "proof" with "evidence," simply because somebody always pulls the "100% certainty" argument. For the purposes of this post, let's not assert anything with 100% certainty. Proof, or evidence, in this case would be anything that elevates the status of a claim so that it is not immediately dismissible.

Belief in a claim that has no support is faith, regardless of your reasons. Belief in a claim that has evidentiary support can also be faith, but then it depends on your reasoning. If you believe this claim simply because of the authority of who tells you, or some other similar fallacy, then you also have some degree of faith, depending on the trustworthiness of your source. However, if you decide to do a little research and evaluate the evidence firsthand, then your belief is not faith-based. Also keep in mind that the basis of your belief has absolutely nothing to do with its validity. That being said, here's what I want to say.

I don’t think a faith-based belief in anything is ever justified. Why do so many people feel that it is somehow innately "good" to have a faith-based belief? I see a faith based belief as simply "believing for the sake of believing." If this belief also happens to be correct, then it is simply a coincidence. The claim may have been made with the intent of figuring out the truth, but the belief is not. If at any point the belief does become supported by evidence, it is no longer faith by the definition I stated before.

"It's called faith because it's not knowledge." - Christopher Hitchens

Based on the above definition, this seems to follow logically. To me, this "argument" is similar to beating a dead horse that everybody claims is still alive. I’m just trying to gain insight on why so many people still disagree with me.



Any belief that isn't somehow ground in evidence is wholly arbitrary and has no bearing on whether something is actually true or false. Some people are OK with believing possible delusions if it means having a happier life. I don't see any problem with that unless they start forcing their views on others in some form.

Personally, I find the truth liberating. Knowing and understanding that there might not be an afterlife makes me realize how precious my time here is. It's pretty amazing; the parts that compose your body have basically been floating around for billions of years, and only now, for this short sliver of time, have they come together to make YOU. It's a pretty long time to wait for such an opportunity.

But for some people, that idea is scary. To those people, believing in an afterlife or a God or something faith-based is the only way to remain sane. That's fine. I think faith-based beliefs are completely OK as long as you aren't doing yourself or others a disservice. Some lies are harmless. Others aren't.

[codcrille]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Never got why some people have to make not being religious such a big deal, if anything atheists who constantly brag about their intelligence and flashes The God Delusion around as their Bible are just as annoying as door knocking cult recruiters. Long ago I used to count myself an atheist, but I've realized I'm not, I simply don't care.

I hate it when people feel the need to bash passively religious people for their beliefs in the same way it annoys the shit out of me every time someone starts the "Why the fuck don't you eat meat, it's so stupid" every time a vegetarian is present at a dinner table.

[0]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

the flying spaghetti monster will smite you all

[Cavernio]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

"Also saying there are plenty of bad things that came with religion, implying that religion is more "bad" than "good" is a somewhat simple position to hold. I guess you think the "bad" you consider that emanated from religion had nothing to see with the ignorance of some people or merely the social context around it and all ; most of historical facts have a STRONG historical context to it and I don't think things would have been less... "bloody" if people didn't believed in a supreme being, they believed the beliefs at the time because they had no other way around. All that was about having beliefs about how the world was functioning ;
Then people used religion to legitimate wars and genocides and some shit like that, it doesn't mean religion was essentially bad but that religion was usually used as a tool to serve the interest of the power that led a said country, region, etc."

I used to argue that people are people, and if it weren't religion that causes wars, it would be something else, since the social context would bring it about anyways. I'm not so sure about that anymore, but I do think that that still might be the case, the zeitgeist and all, and I'm going to try and argue for that.
Simply because there have been religious wars doesn't mean that removing the religion would remove the war. I mean, we still fight over ideas of morality and ways of life, and people in one geographical location have different values than another. Eg: Muslim extremists who pronounce their lives as becoming too "western". They aren't out to fight christians or even non-believers (seeing as they will kill and persecute other less extreme muslims.) They're out to get people who don't believe what they believe, period, Allah and Koran or no. It's hard to blame the religion for war when we easily see that within a religion there is one part that is harmless and one side that's full of self-righteous lunatics, even though it's very much a religious fight.
I've heard it said that well yeah, but without the religion or belief in a supreme being who you can always bring out and say, but God says so so I'm right. That is true. But the same sort of people who will believe that God exists and is all that's good even if God's speaking to them in their dreams telling them to burn down their city, is the same sort of person who, because they were raised with 'traditional' values, won't be logical enough to see that, for example, homosexuality is not immoral.

tl;dr It's not the religion that causes bad things, it's people, religious or not.

On a completely personal level, I was a better person when I was christian. I was nicer. It's probably made me a better person now too, but I'm not as nice as I once was and I don't fall asleep feeling happy and close to God because I do good things.
I have yet to really feel that connection to the world within myself since becoming atheist. I believe that touches one of jjtrixx's points that was sort of glossed over. Of course I'm hardly representative of all atheists.

No one will say that it's stupid to find inner peace or love or whatever you want to call it, and religion offers that to millions of people. And I can't fully frown upon religion or beliefs (even if they're obviously not true) if I don't see religion as the cause for all the horrible wars/fighting that has happened.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

You're basically saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But a gun is the weapon that is used to kill the other person. The same can be said about religion. It's true that people do bad things sometimes without any religious motive, but there also exists people that do bad things because their religious doctrine commands them to do so. This is definitely a problem. A gun itself won't do any harm, but depending on how it's used it can be used for good purposes (protection/hunting etc), bad purposes (murder), and even self-detriment (suicide). I feel this is a very close metaphor to religion. Villains that commit gun crimes need to be stopped as do religious extremists who use their religion as an excuse to harm others.

[Syhto]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

This is painful to my eyes.

[Cavernio]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

You're basically saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But a gun is the weapon that is used to kill the other person.

A gun makes it stupidly easy to kill someone and innocent people, and the only purpose of owning a handgun is to intimidate (even for your own protection it works via intimidation, a negative thing) or kill others. Religion gives no boost to killing people, nor is its sole purpose negative. I think a better analogy would be saying knives kill people, not that I think either is very good. Knives are tools used everyday, but can be used to stab someone. Religion is a tool to make people happy and, generally, only inspires people to do good. That the opposite can happen in a religion doesn't make it all bad, and does not mean that religion is like guns.
One flaw of either analogy is because most religions that I know of, at least all major religions, have a built-in safety measure of putting love first. Anyone who's a christian who says such things like homosexuality is wrong and who hounds people about it or treats them as outcasts, I would say aren't really being christian. The enemy is not religion, but ignorance and failure to be objective and putting your own ideas above someone else so much that you feel you need to persecute them.

A think pretty strong argument to what I've been saying I think would be that religion breeds ignorance and might cause people to be less empirical about ALL things, to start to place faith in things that are outside the scope of their faith. I could see that quite obviously causing serious lag in scientific advancement, which in a grand sense -and I think most people would agree- ends up causing a lot more strife. In the short term I think it's debateable what would cause the most hurt.

However, the ideas of us versus them, protecting your sense of belonging, thrusting your ideals onto someone else in a small sense or a massive scale, and taking these things so far as to cause war, doesn't stem from religion and never has. Yet these are the things that so many atheists site as to why religion is bad and wrong. Religion helps cause wars as much as any culture causes wars.
I'm not sure I see much of a difference in saying religion causes wars to saying (most) religion prevents wars by virtue of the harmonious values they all teach, in terms of misrepresenting the impact religion itself has on the world.
I think that if you could magically remove, and keep removed, all religion you'd have more peace for about a generation before the world would settle down and create new, non-religious groups to become strongly associated with because that's what people do, and shit would hit the fan.

[Choofers]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Some mormon missionaries came to my house today. I was still half asleep when I talked to them, but now I own a copy of the book of mormon. Time to read this beast.

[JJTrixX]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

@ rushy: I agree blind-faith isn't justifiable. My faith is based on knowledge, truth, and feeling, not because I am loyal to a religious establishment or human authority but because i understand what God is. The meaning behind God's true essence and message is more important then the actual term "God". A word is just a word. I do not believe in forcing ideologies of any kind on anyone because not only is it wrong, but it's uneffective. People must come to an understanding themselves(voluntarily), only then will they reach a higher plane in life.

What i find fascinating about most atheists is that they claim to be so intelligent and so superior to everyone else when really, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter. For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves. They don't believe in God because they do not understand God. They have not found God because they do not search for God. They might have searched at one point and gave up searching(maybe due to a drastic dissapointment or unfortunate experience in which they put blame onto God), or just don't care enough to do so. This doesn't mean that God does not exist inside of them. God exists in everyone. Do I think atheists are bad people? Absolutely not. Do I think they are currently lost? Absolutely.

I try my best not to judge others for what they believe or what they do, but when i understand a certain truth, it is my obligation as a 'good' human being to help and share this truth with others so that one day they may come to a realization for the better. I will share what I know and those who chose to listen, will do so. Those who chose not to listen, will do just that. This is everyones God-given right to freedom: freedom of choice. I will still love you either way because you are all my brothers and sisters.

Atheists are just one step behind because they look for 'what they think' is definitive evidence and 'their idea' of detailed science to answer all their questions and to fill their empty void. One day they will realize that all of it comes from God. God is the evidence and the science. Everything in all corners of every dimension within the universe was created by God. God is the ultimate Creator. When you become closer to God, the rest will fall into place and everything will make more sense to you.

I understand that atheists and theists are the same because they all came from the same source. We were created as equals and in Gods image with the incredible gift of free will. Free will is what creates the illusion of individualism and it is only through faith can you become one with the source. We will never know everything, and we were created that way, not to know everything. You can learn mass amounts of information every day, more so then the most knowledgable human on earth, and still you will only know but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the amount of information known in the universe. This is why faith is not only beneficial, but necessary. Do not confuse blind-faith with knowledge-based faith. The good will come with the bad, as do the highs with the lows. Open your minds and you will see. Seek and you will find. Ask, and you shall recieve. Think with your minds and feel with your hearts. Then, will you be guided onto the path of the highest level of consciousness.

-I agree with everything Cavernio has said in posts #161 and #164 and she claims to be an atheist.

[Choofers]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

@ rushy: I agree blind-faith isn't justifiable. My faith is based on knowledge, truth, and feeling, not because I am loyal to a religious establishment or human authority but because i understand what God is. The meaning behind God's true essence and message is more important then the actual term "God". A word is just a word. I do not believe in forcing ideologies of any kind on anyone because not only is it wrong, but it's uneffective. People must come to an understanding themselves(voluntarily), only then will they reach a higher plane in life.

What i find fascinating about atheists is that they claim to be so intelligent and so superior to everyone else when really, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter. For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves. They don't believe in God because they do not understand God. They have not found God because they do not search for God. They might have searched at one point and gave up searching(maybe due to a drastic dissapointment or unfortunate experience in which they put blame onto God), or just don't care enough to do so. This doesn't mean that God does not exist inside of them. God exists in everyone. Do I think atheists are bad people? Absolutely not. Do I think they are currently lost? Absolutely.

I try my best not to judge others for what they believe or what they do, but when i understand a certain truth, it is my obligation as a 'good' human being to help and share this truth with others so that one day they may come to a realization for the better. I will share what I know and those who chose to listen, will do so. Those who chose not to listen, will do just that. This is everyones God-given right to freedom: freedom of choice. I will still love you either way because you are all my brothers and sisters.

Atheists are just one step behind because they look for 'what they think' is definitive evidence and 'their idea' of detailed science to answer all their questions and to fill their empty void. One day they will realize that all of it comes from God. God is the evidence and the science. Everything in all corners of every dimension within the universe was created by God. God is the ultimate Creator. When you become closer to God, the rest will fall into place and everything will make more sense to you.

I understand that atheists and theists are the same because they all came from the same source. We were created as equals and in Gods image with the incredible gift of free will. Free will is what creates the illusion of individualism and it is only through faith can you become one with the source. We will never know everything, and we were created that way, not to know everything. You can learn mass amounts of information every day, more so then the most knowledgable human on earth, and still you will only know but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the amount of information known in the universe. This is why faith is not only beneficial, but necessary. Do not confuse blind-faith with knowledge-based faith. The good will come with the bad, as do the highs with the lows. Open your minds and you will see. Seek and you will find. Ask, and you shall recieve. Think with your minds and feel with your hearts. Then, will you be guided onto the path of the highest level of consciousness.

-I agree with everything Cavernio has said in posts #161 and #164 and he claims to be an atheist.

Cavernio is a female.

ps

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[JJTrixX]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

My apologies to Cavernio, I meant "she".

Choofers, what do you mean by "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods..."?

I can't dismiss that which I do not fully understand. I have not studied any one religion to the fullest to be able to discredit or dismiss any God associated with it. I am a monotheist, and if multiple religions are also monotheisms, then maybe they all believe in the same God but worship that God a different way due to conflicting practices brought up by different cultures. People of different religions always dispute on the semantics of God because most religionists are loyal to their particular religion and aren't open to listen to other beliefs if it doesn't perfectly coincide with thier own. That's not to say that all people of that religion are this way. Nobody is perfect, so there will always be a handful of those that are part of a religion that do things the 'wrong way'. And because those 'wrong-doers' are associated with a particular religion, the naive put the blame of that one person onto the entire religion and make that religion look horrible or 'wrong'.

This going back to what Cavernio was saying, It isn't the religion that causes the deaths of countless people, but the people are the cause of their actions. Rushy also touched on this by mentioning that guns don't kill people, people kill people. This is exactly the case. The guns aren't to blame, for the guns are inanimate objects. The people who(with clouded moral judgment) used the guns to kill are to blame. Not to be funny but this why you never see a 9mm being prosecuted in a court of law stand trial before a judge waiting to be anounced its verdict. Instead, it is always the man or woman behind the shooting of the 9 mm that is put on trial.

Besides, all I have spoken on was the position of atheism and theism, which is the focus of this thread, is it not?

I believe, nay...I know a true theist is closer to the answer in life he/she is looking for then a true atheist is. Although neither is any better of a person then the other is.

Another thing to point out that we all can agree on is that atheists have much less restrictions then theists do. Think about that....i will expand on this statement upon request if need be

[Choofers]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

My apologies to Cavernio, I meant "she".

Choofers, what do you mean by "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods..."?

I can't dismiss that which I do not fully understand. I have not studied any one religion to the fullest to be able to discredit or dismiss any God associated with it. I am a monotheist, and if multiple religions are also monotheisms, then maybe they all believe in the same God but worship that God a different way due to conflicting practices brought up by different cultures.

Except you're understanding the quote backwards.

You're a Christian, so I'm assuming you believe in Yahweh? Why don't you believe in, say, Allah, or any Hindu gods? Is it because your faith requires you to believe in the single Christian god? Or is it for some other reason? And this works inversely for any other religion. If you believed in the Islamic god, you would not believe in the Christian god.

Not every monotheistic religion believes in the same god. If you were to walk to a Muslim and say that your Christian god is the same as their Islam god, they would most likely be offended.