Atheism/Theism thread

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Speaking of the origin of the universe as a whole, i always wondered this: how come, by religious standpoint, it is OK to say that god always existed and THEN created universe, but having the universe to always have existed - maybe going through a cycle of inflating and deflating, we don't know yet - is not?

[Reincarnate]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Speaking of the origin of the universe as a whole, i always wondered this: how come, by religious standpoint, it is OK to say that god always existed and THEN created universe, but having the universe to always have existed - maybe going through a cycle of inflating and deflating, we don't know yet - is not?

Answering the question from a naturalistic perspective is really hard, because as humans we don't have any other sort of reference point for our intuition. If something's here, it "came" from somewhere. It something is complex, it was "designed" intelligently like a computer or watch. Even though we have plenty of examples of things coming out of nowhere (on the quantum scale) or complex things arising naturally from simplicity, it's a counterintuitive framework people aren't comfortable with, especially on a macroscopic everyday-life scale.

And so the default answer for many is that our universe is just a creation and God must have done it -- but of course when you ask what created God, God is "beyond comprehension / outside space / outside time." The idea of a universe coming about naturally keeps God out of the picture, which many dislike.

Again, God is largely an emotional appeal. There's no rational defense for it (even Ken Jennings, a Mormon, acknowledged this), but plenty of people would rather be happy than be right. I think for someone who grows up always believing in God, the mere thought that God doesn't exist feels blasphemous/dirty/guilt-ridden and they quickly push it out of mind and dig in their heels harder to defend what can't ever be beaten (because God is defined in a way that is always outside of whatever evidence we have, no matter how much we know).

Personally, even on an emotional level, I much prefer natural science to God. Our existence is like an everlasting series of LOST or something -- or a huge mystery novel with all sorts of awesome twists/turns. I want to know how the puzzle fits together than just give up and accept a nonexplanation.

Stuff like this touches me on an emotional scale I can't even describe in words, lol. When you really try to wrap your head around just how much is out there -- when you try to make sense of the scales -- it's mindblowing. It leads to a slew of really interesting questions... and I hate that I won't live long enough to see the ending and know the answer to it all... but you have to take what you can. :P

Richard Feynman on not knowing things (and one of my favorite quotes ever):

“I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.”
— Richard P. Feynman

[Nullifidian]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Richard Feynman on not knowing things (and one of my favorite quotes ever):

“I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.”
— Richard P. Feynman

Richard Feynman's words are among my favorite quotes too. :')

[RNGRX]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

I think this belongs here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufUEx9vUyA0

[RB_Spirit]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

That's still a vague question, but how humans as we know them today came into existence is through evolution.
edit: If you're talking about how life originated, that's abiogenesis, but there's no definite answer to that yet. Again though, be more specific in what you're asking.

Here's a vid on one of abiogenesis's models that helped me understand it better:

Are you referring to darwins theory? curious, because i know nothing about evolution, or other forms of it. I'm just a bit curious as to what improvements have been made since his supposed, "flawed theory".

[Reincarnate]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Are you referring to darwins theory? curious, because i know nothing about evolution, or other forms of it. I'm just a bit curious as to what improvements have been made since his supposed, "flawed theory".

Evolution is not flawed -- it's a scientific fact.

[ilikexd]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Are you referring to darwins theory? curious, because i know nothing about evolution, or other forms of it. I'm just a bit curious as to what improvements have been made since his supposed, "flawed theory".

Well now it's pretty much the foundation of the entire field of zoology.

And you can observe evolution happen in many aspects in the world, not just in life. For example, languages change over time based on the same things that govern natural selection (one of the primary causes of evolution).

Evolution is a really cool thing. If you know nothing about it, I really recommend you do a little reading.

Also, where did you get the notion that it's a "flawed theory"? Who told you that? Because you couldn't have made that determination yourself, seeing as you say you know nothing about evolution.


And in case you didn't know: Evolution and God(s) aren't mutually exclusive. You can be a theist and still observe evolutionary processes in the world.

[RB_Spirit]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

I said, "supposed flaw" merely because i'm aware that before darwin died, he himself stated it was flawed to an extent, from what i'm understanding, and that's interesting, thanks a lot ilikexd.

[RB_Spirit]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Evolution is not flawed -- it's a scientific fact.

The entire world is flawed to an extent, including science, not to single one particular subject out, but it's definitely a fact.

Hoorah for double post!~

[ilikexd]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

The "flaw" you may be referring to is, that even though he noticed all the evolutionary changes from natural selection (what he called at the time "Descent with Modification"), he couldn't explain the actual reason these species changed over time.

It was later that Mendel's work started to discovered the ways parents pass off traits to their offspring, which continued and still continues to be developed today -- the field of study called Genetics.


To summarize, he knew what was going on and why it happened, he was just bothered that he couldn't figure out how it was happening.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

I said, "supposed flaw" merely because i'm aware that before darwin died, he himself stated it was flawed to an extent, from what i'm understanding, and that's interesting, thanks a lot ilikexd.

Nope -- Darwin did not "doubt his own theory" or say it was "flawed," etc. The people who claim this usually quotemine.

Even so, even if he did doubt the theory in the end (which he didn't), the science still holds up in the end anyway.

[ilikexd]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

But that's the great thing about science.

We can come up with amazing new ideas about how the world operates, based on empirical evidence and analysis.

We can admit that we are unsure about some parts of theories, or that there seem to be "missing pieces" that make us doubt.

But later on in time somebody else may make a new discovery that causes everything to make sense.

Such is the example of the later discovery of genetic inheritance supporting natural selection, along with new discoveries about the Earth and how it goes through changes that take place over very long time scales, which helped support the idea of slow evolution over time -- in contrast to a more prevalent "young Earth" hypothesis.

[Cavernio]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

Spitfire, unfortunately because it's incredibly awkward, you would need to read and respond to all my posts in the thread, not just that single one, as they have a flow and I believe I begin by addressing what you've said in my first post of the thread.
Eg: white supremacy didn't arise from religion, nor does it need support from God to make these people think they're in the right. That many white supremacists seem to be christian speaks to what I see the root of the problem as being; people who won't consider that they're wrong or who won't try to better themselves or who blindly follow what someone else says or who would become outcasts if they adopted different values.
Ah, an even better example would be Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, a massive conflict that has nothing to do with religion.

"Too often is it used to promote bigoted and outdated ideas" I agree with that statement. But putting a blanket of religion over bigoted and outdated ideas doesn't make it the religion that's wrong. Religion adopts all sorts of beliefs and moral standpoints that are hot topics of debate within their own cultural context, they're not static belief systems.

"It is pretty obvious that religion was the single biggest driving force behind the Salem Witch Trials and that it wasn't done as some sort of group-bonding exercise. Group-bonding may have been an after-effect but it wouldn't have been the primary cause. You need a stronger motive to do that, something which religion can provide."

I didn't means to say it was a group-bonding excersise, I was trying to say that it was the force of a group of people outting people who were different than themselves. Which now that I read more about them isn't really true as it was all about trying to find someone to blame for what was probably ergot poisoning.
(Totally aside it makes me see that medicine is still just as retarded as it was back then because if you don't have an explanation, we still blame in on things that are fairly baseless, instead of demons it's all just in your head. Oh how we've advanced.)

I also realize how impossible it is to separate religion from culture when religion IS the only culture. I couldn't have picked a worse thing to reference to try and support my point, since yes, if people didn't believe witchcraft existed, this would never have happened. And yes, in this case, I do see religion as the precipitating cause. I should stick to modern events that we can dissect and understand the context.
Nevertheless, I 100% disagree, in general, that the desire to be part of a group isn't strong enough motive for people to believe someone's done something they haven't and then do horrendous things to them. It's almost the only motive. Even reading this terrible example, the Intial Events section that wikipedia has about the salem witch trials sites that every single one of those people is an outcast or dissenter of some sort, someone who's not part of the usual group, before the whole thing escalates.

[star reaper]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

I think the biggest problem for everyone here looking at different views is because of a personal bias based on the one everyone begins with.

[retching oesophagus]

Re: Atheism/Theism thread

That many white supremacists seem to be christian speaks to what I see the root of the problem as being; people who won't consider that they're wrong or who won't try to better themselves or who blindly follow what someone else says or who would become outcasts if they adopted different values.

That many white supremacists also seem to be christian tells me that there probably is a link between the two. If the root of the problem is people who won't consider that they are wrong, then why do they think that way? Because their religion gives them the conviction that they are right. Therefore, religion does seem to be at the root of it. People who blindly follow are controlled into doing so by their religion and why are people who adopt different values outcast? Because their religion commands it so.

Ah, an even better example would be Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, a massive conflict that has nothing to do with religion.

Honestly, how can you keep making such wrong statements? Do you not know the role the catholic church played in spreading the racist ideology amongst the Rwandans that eventually led to the genocide against the Tutsi people? Religion had a lot to do with the conflict.

"Too often is it used to promote bigoted and outdated ideas" I agree with that statement. But putting a blanket of religion over bigoted and outdated ideas doesn't make it the religion that's wrong. Religion adopts all sorts of beliefs and moral standpoints that are hot topics of debate within their own cultural context, they're not static belief systems

If a religion keeps on inspiring bigoted and outdated ideas wouldn't you say there's a good chance of the religion being wrong. It's not beyond the realm of possibility seeing that all religions are man-made sets of beliefs, very fallible, and prone to making people doing crazy things. Also I don't think you are providing a very accurate portrait of religion. Religion takes specific values and reinforces them on its followers. The people who run it are very resistant to change and are not normally welcome to others viewpoints. And I don't think I would want to take part in the hot topics of debate that were happening at the Salem Witch Trials.

(Totally aside it makes me see that medicine is still just as retarded as it was back then because if you don't have an explanation, we still blame in on things that are fairly baseless, instead of demons it's all just in your head. Oh how we've advanced.)

The idea that you think medicine is just as retarded as it was back then is pretty funny. Care to try some trepanation? Or maybe it is just in your head.

Nevertheless, I 100% disagree, in general, that the desire to be part of a group isn't strong enough motive for people to believe someone's done something they haven't and then do horrendous things to them. It's almost the only motive. Even reading this terrible example, the Intial Events section that wikipedia has about the salem witch trials sites that every single one of those people is an outcast or dissenter of some sort, someone who's not part of the usual group, before the whole thing escalates.

You say the desire to be part of a group is almost the only motive. Well in this case the group is a religious group and to be part of the group you have to follow the religion. The religion makes them fearful of God and to believe in sin and the Devil and makes them do crazy things like witch-burning. And why are they especially fearful of outsiders and dissenters? Because their religion has helped make them that way. Religion is what influenced their behaviour. You seem to be trying to absolve religion of all blame, even when it is responsible.