MapleStory

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  • evilbutterfly
    FFR Player
    • Apr 2003
    • 5784

    #13531
    Re: MapleStory

    Chris, you bought up Meso Explosion, a perfect example. How much can a C. Dit do with a 50k bag? Well let's say a priest casts genesis 10 times, using an elixir every time (which would actually be overhealing, I believe), and let's assume elixirs cost the bishop 5k. All that damage surely adds up to way more than what the C. Dit could do with ME, but it doesn't require any mobbing or setup or placing bags.

    My main beef, though, is that Nexon clearly wasn't thinking things through all the way when they made 4th job. They obviously had Amp in mind when they made all the bishop skills have a higher base attack than all the archmage skills. When making the MP costs, however, they seemed to have forgotten their plan to keep amp in mind and therefore made Bishop skills a tad too ridiculous. They finally lowered the dragon's power, but then left Genesis/that thing that's like Holy Arrow alone. =\

    Also, they made the whole Fire/Ice Demon thing, and in the quest to get it you are even forced to party with an opposite element archmage. But then when it came time to create the main attacks for archmages, they made them an element that doesn't benefit at all from something being weak to ice/fire. In fact, Paralyze and Chain Lightning are both strong than previous main attacks of archmages, even if used against something weak to fire/ice but neutral to poison/lightning.

    I posted a whole long rant listing all the things I thought were clear evidence showing how little Nexon thought this all through. Skills like Blocking and Achilles, which reduce damage less than 2nd and 3rd job skills that several classes have already, were big on my list of obvious problems. Honestly, I'm sort of appalled by how badly they've screwed things up. As somebody who wants to make games for a living and takes pride in making a good game, this is really upsetting. At least 3rd job had some semblance of balance and the skills were mostly useful, but 4th job is full of crap balance and useless skills. It's horrendous. =\
    So I've gone completely slack-ass and haven't done any work on creating games. =(

    In less-depressing news, I got a job for an online business (which sells non-electronic games, of all things!) which has taught me a lot about marketing online and all that jazz.

    So now I'm on Twitter @NoahWright.
    And I write the blog for their website.

    Plus I do cool programming in-house that you'll never see. =O

    Comment

    • Afrobean
      Admiral in the Red Army
      • Dec 2003
      • 13262

      #13532
      Re: MapleStory

      Yeah, I agree that Bishops can deal perhaps far too much damage, but nerfing it is a poor way to go about solving the problem I think. People saying "duh make it weaker" don't realize that Bishops don't get a lot in terms of decent attack outside of this. As it is, I wouldn't be surprised if Bishops end up using SR more than the Holy Arrow v2/whatever the hell else they decided to waste the Bishop skill book with. Yeah, it's incredibly strong, but it's supposed to be. It has a cost, obviously, like ME, even if ME has a much higher cost. The problem isn't that it's too strong I think, it's that the cost is not high enough that it's not spammable. Making the skill cost more MP than any magician can ever have would be enough to remove the spamming power of this overpowered skill without making it completely worthless by making it weak while still taking a long time to cast and costing a massive amount of MP.

      Comment

      • evilbutterfly
        FFR Player
        • Apr 2003
        • 5784

        #13533
        Re: MapleStory

        People only don't realize how good that new holy arrow thing is because Genesis overshadows everything in terms of power. 240 base is a ****-ton. Holy Arrow at it's best is 120 best. This new thing at its best is 360 base. That is TRIPLE the power of HA! Next to Genesis, however, it's just another weakass skill. Then again, everything is just another weakass skill next to Genesis.

        And I've been one of the few people saying they should make the MP costs match on SW. Everybody else only thinks of killing the damage. Really, though, I think the MP costs and base damages should be changed. The only other cleric skill that is stronger than a compareable mage skill is Shining Ray when compared to Ice Strike (105 vs 90). That's not a drastic difference (about 17% stronger, thought Amp makes Strike 35% stronger, meaning Strike ends up being about 17% stronger in the end), and it's offset by the fact that Strike has far superior range and is able to freeze 6 things at a time.

        The 4th job AoEs are all exactly the same, except for the ice one, since it freezes, too. It should probably be a little weaker than the other 2 because of that advantage. Aside from that, there's no reason the 3 skills shouldn't be damn near the exact same. =\
        So I've gone completely slack-ass and haven't done any work on creating games. =(

        In less-depressing news, I got a job for an online business (which sells non-electronic games, of all things!) which has taught me a lot about marketing online and all that jazz.

        So now I'm on Twitter @NoahWright.
        And I write the blog for their website.

        Plus I do cool programming in-house that you'll never see. =O

        Comment

        • Afrobean
          Admiral in the Red Army
          • Dec 2003
          • 13262

          #13534
          Re: MapleStory

          Originally posted by evilbutterfly
          People only don't realize how good that new holy arrow thing is because Genesis overshadows everything in terms of power. 240 base is a ****-ton. Holy Arrow at it's best is 120 best. This new thing at its best is 360 base. That is TRIPLE the power of HA! Next to Genesis, however, it's just another weakass skill. Then again, everything is just another weakass skill next to Genesis.
          But, think of it this way:

          SR has base 157.5 against holy weak. It hits up to 6 targets. It's minimum power is 157.5 and it's maximum power totaled is 945. This Holy Arrow v2 has 240 base always. I'd only have to be hitting 2 monsters at once for SR to deal greater damage.

          And yes, I'm sure that HAv2 is faster (so I'd probably have to hit 3 or 4 more to deal greater damage) but I am sure that it's not fast enough to deal greater damage in mobs than SR ON AVERAGE. And lemme tell you, there is no way that I'll be leveling on or hunting a monster that doesn't come in mobs, except possibly for fun, but if it's for fun anyway, damage output is irrelevant.

          [went into a rant here for a bit... hopefully, it's cohesive enough]

          I realize now... It's really a double edge sword debating this stuff. Bishops got garbage in terms of support skills, so they need offensive skills. But people don't want to be outdamaged by a Bishop because it'll make their penis flaccid. And obviously I want to be able to deal good damage due to the lack of support skills, but at the same time, I don't want to be bitched at for dealing greater damage than anyone else except possibly mages. That brings up another point. I really don't like that everyone bitches about Bishop's AoE but doesn't comment at all on Mage's. Mages can deal even greater damage than Bishops when the element is on their side (and recall, mages get a skill that allows them to make anything weak to the opposite mage's element). So basically, an Arch Mage can always deal great damage than a Bishop, it's just if they want to take the trouble of making the monster weak to their element or not. However, either way, I'm sure that if Bishops are so much stronger than every other class, that mages are also almost as more powerful than every other class, even without having elemental advantage. What I'm trying to get at here is that if Bishop AoE is broken, then Mage AoE is just as broken. And don't even give me this, oh but it costs us more MP garbage because it does more damage too. And not only that, but you could still spam it. Hell, I'm only 103 and I could sit there and spam it with my level of MP. Perhaps the other classes don't realize that mages can spam their AoE as well (that is to say, perhaps they don't realize just how massive a mage's MP is at that level). That's the only reason I can figure why people are up in arms about being outdamaged by "the support class" but don't seem to mind about being outdamaged by the other mages.

          Comment

          • Afrobean
            Admiral in the Red Army
            • Dec 2003
            • 13262

            #13535
            Re: MapleStory

            Double post for AfrobeanFire stuff.

            Just did one test: 132300 exp gain per hour of grinding at Jr Pepes.

            So thats 133028 exp and 22.01% in 1 hour of casual training.
            I wonder how that compares to a fire mage.
            Seems right about the same. The slight variance of 700 difference is easily accountable on my end because I kept freaking falling all the way to the bottom and the bottom doesn't have monsters anymore. Remember, 700 exp is less than 10 Jr Pepes.

            I also thought about testing with no looting, and I'd obviously get much more exp, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison, so I won't even bother.

            Gonna try Jr Yetis in a moment. I assume I'll do better now because of the slightly better gear than I used to have when I played this char before.

            ps I found a 60 lama at grims the other day rofl owned

            EDIT: Didn't realize there were cakes all over jr yetis. Guess that'll have to wait. My accuracy is much higher there now though, so at least there's that.

            Also, remember how much jumping and climbing there is at jr pepes before you go "oh wow look at dat I get better exp than u lol", O, Mr. Archer.
            Last edited by Afrobean; 05-17-2007, 06:42 AM.

            Comment

            • ImEric12
              FFR Player
              • Jan 2004
              • 1952

              #13536
              Re: MapleStory

              Except that for the mage AOE to have the same base attack as the Bishop one, we need amp, which everyone gets anyway.

              Amp doubles mp cost. So unless you have 12k mp (which I don't think is common at level 120~130?), you need unlimited MP.

              (I'm going off numbers I remember from a long time ago. Correct me if I'm at all wrong in this argument.)

              Comment

              • Afrobean
                Admiral in the Red Army
                • Dec 2003
                • 13262

                #13537
                Re: MapleStory

                http://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Jobs

                Mage AoE only use 7k MP with max Amp. I have 7k MP at present and I am only 103.

                Comment

                • Mythiqudame
                  FFR Player
                  • May 2007
                  • 17

                  #13538
                  Re: MapleStory

                  I have some questions (being the MapleStory 'noob' out of everyone) like this one:

                  1.What is the easiest character to make, but to have it be an effective character at the same time?
                  2. Which server is best? (sounds dumb but all these servers are confusing )
                  3. And which character class/type/whatever will be most effectice for me in the future?

                  That's about it.
                  Love life. Love insanity.
                  I play 1 handed.
                  sigpic Zomg killa cow.

                  Comment

                  • ImEric12
                    FFR Player
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 1952

                    #13539
                    Re: MapleStory

                    Oooh. Interesting. You're right, I'm not really sure why it isn't made a bigger deal out of, considering max amp/elementally positive training would net us a magic attack of ~1154. I know what skill I'm getting first. Expensive as hell, yes, but oh man.

                    Comment

                    • MagicCarpetRide
                      Skware One
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 1125

                      #13540
                      Re: MapleStory

                      Originally posted by Mythiqudame
                      I have some questions (being the MapleStory 'noob' out of everyone) like this one:

                      1.What is the easiest character to make, but to have it be an effective character at the same time?
                      2. Which server is best? (sounds dumb but all these servers are confusing )
                      3. And which character class/type/whatever will be most effectice for me in the future?

                      That's about it.
                      Everyone here plays in bera. I play in windia...But only because I'm cool. Be whatever the ****k you want. What looks like fun?

                      Comment

                      • banditcom
                        FFR Player
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 6243

                        #13541
                        Re: MapleStory

                        Bishops really only need Genesis to level 10.

                        The mp cost for Genesis is the broken part. MP cost for the mage skills fits: if you want to spam, it's gonna cost an assload. That's how it should be for Bishops.

                        Arch Mage's 4th job AOE: VERY costly.
                        Dragon Knight's 3rd job AOE: Slow, stuns you, not very strong, costly.
                        Paladin's 4th job AOE: Doesn't kill monsters (leaves 1 hp), cooldown at level 30 is 100 seconds.
                        Bishop's 4th job AOE: Elementally strong against best experience in the game... Oh wait, that's an advantage.

                        Yeah uhh lol... It needs to be double the cost.

                        Comment

                        • Mythiqudame
                          FFR Player
                          • May 2007
                          • 17

                          #13542
                          Re: MapleStory

                          Alright, so um..I downloaded Parts 1-20 and then I opened Part 1 and hit 'Install'

                          After the screen that says 'Extracting..' and it finishes it says 'Unexpected end of archive' in between Parts 4 and 5, Parts 11-12, and Parts 12-13.

                          I don't know what happened but it still won't install.

                          Any help?
                          Love life. Love insanity.
                          I play 1 handed.
                          sigpic Zomg killa cow.

                          Comment

                          • Necamus
                            FFR Player
                            • Nov 2005
                            • 853

                            #13543
                            Re: MapleStory

                            Might want to try redownloading 4, 5, 11, 12, and 13.
                            www.freerice.com

                            Comment

                            • evilbutterfly
                              FFR Player
                              • Apr 2003
                              • 5784

                              #13544
                              Re: MapleStory

                              Originally posted by Afrobean
                              But, think of it this way:

                              SR has base 157.5 against holy weak. It hits up to 6 targets. It's minimum power is 157.5 and it's maximum power totaled is 945. This Holy Arrow v2 has 240 base always. I'd only have to be hitting 2 monsters at once for SR to deal greater damage.
                              No, it's 240 base against neutrals. That's 360 base against holy-weak, which is more than double SR's base. SR is also about half as fast, meaning you'd have to hit 5-6 monsters for SR to be worthwhile. ALSO, keep in mind that you'll be fighting skelegons, so you'll probably be fighting with MG on (massive damage and ER does nothing to them). Skelegons don't have as much range as magicians, I don't think (at least the graphic for their attack isn't that long, maybe it hits farther than it looks), so constant KB from that arrow skill would be quite useful if you want to save money. Then again, friggin giant AoE skill would be a better bet anyway.

                              And Chris, really, nobody would've complained if Bishops never got the full screen AoE to begin with. If they had gotten decent buffs and things in 4th job instead and only mages got the full screen attacks, people would be happier. As it is, I see a lot of priests saying they would've quit if bishops weren't strong. Well then why the **** did you choose the weakest class in the game? -__- Honestly, I think Nexon really botched 4th job. They botched a lot of things in MS, really. Like the defense system. And the fact that every job has at least one completely useless skill (yeah lemme get shield mastery that's useful!).

                              People on SW, when it's said that bishops should have better support skills, show how uncreative they are by saying "well all the useful buffs are already taken, what more could they get?" These are the same people who came up with "double strafe, shoot 8 arrows that do 200% damage!!" when asked for cool 4th job skill ideas. Morons. Maple Hero should be Bishop-only. Reflection could possibly be a group buff that actually works like Power Guard but for magic (unlike the crappy way it works now). Or hell, buff mastery or a buff buff (something that makes any buffs active on somebody last some % longer and provide some % more of an effect). There are plenty of things they could've given bishops for support that would've made them more unique and EXTREMELY useful. I'm sure if priests could cast Reflection on an entire party at bosses and they were the only source for 10% more of each main stat they'd be sought after even moreso than they are for Holy Symbol.

                              But now that Nexon has given bishops a taste of power, if they were to take it away (like they really ought to, honestly), it'd just piss people off. I wish I worked for Nexon, cuz I have plenty of things that would make much better skills than what they've come up with.

                              Also, btw, the mage AoE skills barely overpower the bishop one against fire or ice-weak monsters. Observe the stats for each skill maxed:

                              Genesis vs skelegons = 1005
                              Blizzard/Meteo vs skelegons (with amp) = 769.5
                              Blizzard/Meteo vs lower exp things that are ice/fire weak = 1154.25

                              In the end, that 150 extra base damage probably won't make the difference between 2 and 1 hitting things. There will also be a lot of overkill, simple because it's one strong hit. Personally, I'll leave Meteo at level 1 and only use it in instances where plowing through crowds casting Mist would be more expensive. And given that at level 1 it's still gonna cost me 4200mp (aka: more than maxed Genesis for a priest), I probably won't end up using it very much. Thankfully Paralyze/Ice Golem will save me a lot of money, or else I'd never get a chance to use Meteo whatsoever. I oughta have enough money saved up after many levels using Paralyze/Ice Golem to afford spamming maxed Meteo somewhere, but who knows. =\

                              EDIT: Jason, I saw you post about it on SW, but do you know where the 80% hp/mp pot is that's for sale from an NPC? I looked around stores in JMS and couldn't find one, but I wasn't sure what version had it and what World Tour place it'd be in. It'll be nice to know where it is once my cleric gets higher up there, cuz I bet it's cheap as hell for MP. That's another thing, any idea right off how much it sells for?
                              Last edited by evilbutterfly; 05-17-2007, 04:56 PM.
                              So I've gone completely slack-ass and haven't done any work on creating games. =(

                              In less-depressing news, I got a job for an online business (which sells non-electronic games, of all things!) which has taught me a lot about marketing online and all that jazz.

                              So now I'm on Twitter @NoahWright.
                              And I write the blog for their website.

                              Plus I do cool programming in-house that you'll never see. =O

                              Comment

                              • Afrobean
                                Admiral in the Red Army
                                • Dec 2003
                                • 13262

                                #13545
                                Re: MapleStory

                                Originally posted by banditcom
                                Yeah uhh lol... It needs to be double the cost.
                                Costing 7k MP doesn't decrease spammability. All it does is increase pot usage cost by a bit. Just think... instead of using an elixir between each cast of Genesis, we'll be using a power elixir. What's the price difference between these? Not much.

                                Is that really all you want for this to be "balanced"? Have us spend a few more thousand mesos for every cast of the skill?

                                The problem, I would say, isn't that Bishops aren't wasting enough mesos to deal massive damage via spamming. The problem is that we can spam a skill which isn't intended to be spammed. A simple 7k MP cost won't stop anyone from spamming it if they would have spammed it at 3.5k MP cost. All it'll do is hit our cash supply a little harder.

                                And yes, I know that mage AoE is only a bit stronger with element advantage, but the point is that people bitch about Priests being able to spam for massive damage when mages can do the same thing.

                                And once again, 7k MP cost doesn't stop them from being able to spam. All it does is make them have to heal MP more often, which would probably just be using a power elixir (or possibly even a normal elixir if they have HB...). The only way to fix the MP cost to block spamming would be to make it IMPOSSIBLY high. Make it so high that it can only be used during Infinite Mana... that's the only way to unbreak it in my opinion. Anything else would remove the entire purpose of the skill, or pervert it in attempt to fix it, but would really just skew it slightly in the direction of balanced.

                                EDIT: ok let me put it this way:

                                Let's say for the sake of arguement that the skill is to cost 100% of MP (there is no way it could be higher cost than this, unless you go with what I said above). All that this would do is the magician would cast their AoE, then immediately use a power elixir. They'd still be dealing the same damage per second as if the skill only cost 1 MP. My understanding was that the problem was with MASSIVE damage per second possible, not from the fact that it doesn't make for much mesos cost.

                                Ok, if Meso Explosion exploded 5k bags just as well as 50k bags, would you be mad about it? If they have 5k bags, they're already simply dropping it, so it's not like it'd allow them to use the skill in new ways. What's the difference then? It costs the player more mesos. It doesn't allow them to deal greater damage it just costs them less mesos than would be otherwise. I feel it's the same kind of thing here. People seem to be mad that it doesn't cost much mesos when they should be mad that it deals so much damage.

                                EDIT: Noah, I don't care, if everything you have to say is true about the skill actually being worthwhile. HAv2 sucks.
                                Last edited by Afrobean; 05-17-2007, 05:29 PM.

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