President Bush

[xWnLx Crisco]

Re: President Bush

One sad thing I have NOT seen in this whole thread is support for any of the soldiers.

I support them 100% and if I was needed to go into active duty I sure as hell would.

Shade is speaking on part of what he does on a daily basis and how he was trained so what happens? People nit pick at his training and his job. I can guarantee that none of you would spit on a soldier in person like you do who says it how it is. If you want to keep the peace in the Middle East then go there and be sure to tell us what happens to you when you talk to a 14 year old boy with a AK-47 aimed at your head. These forums are so funny because you hide in a world you now nothing about but the stuff you hear from the internet or TV.

Devonin your country doesn't have soldiers so I am not expecting anything from you.

[Relambrien]

Re: President Bush

This is how I see it. You have two sides shouting at each other that the other side is wrong. The argument is so loud and outrageous that no one can here each other over their own voices. Each side is openly praising the information that they receive that confirms their argument while entirely ignoring any information that disagrees with their view.

One could compare it to two people standing on opposite sides of a concrete wall, each trying to destroy it with a small hammer (keep in mind this wall serves absolutely no purpose). No matter how hard either of them hit the wall, the hammer just bounces off. The most each can do is hope to take a nice chunk of rock out of the wall. In the mean time, they are getting all hot and sweaty from whacking away at the wall all day.

In the end, everyone stops caring about the wall...and no one really knows why it was such a big deal.

With that said, chip away. No one cares.

I know I haven't popped in on this thread, but I have to praise you for this post. It pretty much describes every heated debate topic perfectly well. People that are set in their beliefs are set in their beliefs, and will not change.

Personally, before reading this thread I wasn't sure what to think about Bush's administration or, particularly, the Iraq war. But now, after reading the arguments, I feel much more certain about what I believe. And to make this post legitimate, I might as well say what that is.

People kept bringing up the whole "Weapons of mass destruction" thing as a premise for entering the war. I don't think that was Bush's purpose at all, even in the beginning. That was just a guise that would appear valid so that he could go in and remove a government he didn't like. This isn't necessarily such a bad thing, however, as he didn't like the government because of how the citizens were treated, which is a perfectly valid concern. However, disguising the intention of the war in order to gain more support is something I cannot condone. If he had said it openly from the beginning, I'm sure more support from both inside and outside America could've been obtained. Obviously, I have no source for this claim, as it is an opinion I developed from reading this thread.

Still, I can't agree with it. I can see his point of view, but it's not our (I'm American) role to decide what other countries should do. Our military should not be used to instill our beliefs on other countries. We need one, obviously, because there are several groups that despise us. Even if they have no real war-making capability, if we have no military ourselves, they'll still be able to cause great harm to us. Thus, I support a military, but one that stays out of other countries' affairs and takes measures to stop incoming attacks against us. Not prevent them, as that would involve preemptively attacking another group, but to stop them as they are occurring. For instance, if we had another 9/11, shooting down the planes mid-flight, or better security measures to stop terrorists from even boarding. You get the idea.

The military, in my opinion, should be a deterrent, an item or entity used to discourage certain acts. In this case, those acts would be attacks on America.

Now, provided we somehow still manage to get ourselves attacked, I have no problems with us going out to eliminate those who attacked us. I supported the American effort to eliminate Al-Qaeda, because they are the ones who attacked us. However, I cannot support the effort in Iraq, because they posed no threat to us.

Now, some people will say, "But that shows weakness, that we aren't willing to go out and fight!" And to them I say this. What do you think our invasion of Iraq shows? "Oh look at us, we can't fix our own country so we're gonna go try to remove a harsh government in the Middle East to make us look strong!" It's the classic bully mentality, "I feel bad about myself so I'm gonna bully you to make me feel like I'm better than you." I don't mean to say the soldiers think this, but I think it's how Bush felt when he went into Iraq. Either that or he wanted to finish the job his father started in the first Gulf War.

These are just my opinions and I don't expect anyone to agree, but that's not what I'm trying to do by writing this. I just want to get my views out there

Forgot to say, even if I don't support the war, I support the troops we have fighting it. They're doing what they believe in, which is all I can ask. I'll do everything in my power to make things better for them, but I won't go over there to fight myself. I don't believe in the war.

EDIT: Edited for clarification.

[ShAiOnEi]

Re: President Bush

I'm in the Airforce

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

One sad thing I have NOT seen in this whole thread is support for any of the soldiers.

Also, a lot of presumption, and telling us what we do or do not believe, and what we are or are not capable off

We aren't discussing the soldiers, or their ability, dedication or drive. We are discussing the government and its decisions to carry out operations. I'm sorry you feel the need to connect the issue to the fact that there are people being made to deal with it, in order to use that as a means to deny other people's logical statements about whether the conflict -itself- is justified. OBVIOUSLY if operations are being carried out no matter what, we support the people who are made to do the work. We want every soldier to come back alive, and safe, and to imply that we think otherwise is incredibly insulting, arrogant and displays an incredible bias that anyone who is opposed to military action in Iraq is De Facto against the soldiers personally as well. To paraphrase Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you've been sent to do, but I will defend to the death your right to do your duty"

These forums are so funny because you hide in a world you now nothing about but the stuff you hear from the internet or TV.

And you only ever give opinions on things about which you have complete, in-depth first hand knowledge? With this logic, nobody is EVER allowed to talk about ANYTHING that they aren't personally doing themselves. Where do you think the people who are -for- the hostilities get their information? Other aspects of the television and internet.

Devonin your country doesn't have soldiers so I am not expecting anything from you.

So you criticize us for not showing respect to soldiers, and then denigrate an entire other army? Hypocrite.

The canadian military makes up 0.5% of our population. The american military makes up 1.3% of your population. You'll note that neither of these numbers is especially high. Just because we have a small military doesn't mean we have no military, we also have 1/10th your population.

Since 1947, the Canadian Forces has participated in more than 200 operations worldwide and has completed 72 international operations including the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan and the NATO stabilization force (SFOR) in Bosnia-Herzegovina. On any given day one third of the deployable force is preparing for, engaged in or returning from an overseas mission.

I'd appreciate it if you treat nations that are not your own with at least a modicum of respect. We're right in there fighting and dying alongside you, in every place you've gone that we agreed with. Just because we think this particular action is unjustified doesn't mean Canada has no respect for the american military. Please at least pretend to show us the same respect, this is a forum for intelligent discussion, not insults.

[8Shade8]

Re: President Bush

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war.../centurion.htm

So tell me this then 8shade8, if these groups are so gigantic, just how large are they? What percentage of the population of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and say...Saudi Arabia are 'evil terrorist insurgents' 10%? 20%? 90%? Give us a ballpark here. And short of the Taliban controlling Afghanistan (Which by the way, they claimed to have 12,000 members, a whopping 0.03% of the total population of Afghanistan, yeah you need a whole ton of people to take over a country) I deny that "they" are running "whole countries" when you give no evidence.

That's another thing: This is Critical Thinking, wherein you must support your statements with some kind of evidence, so lets have no more of this nonsense "I make a claim, and then claim that I'm "not allowed" to give any of the necessary evidence" style of discussion.

If you are privy to classified information, even implying to civilians that you know it is almost certainly a breach of military protocol. If you -CANNOT- support what you claim with any kind of evidence, just don't make such claims.

First of all, the information you are asking is FOUO, and probably has a Secret classification. I have not violated any clearances so far, but you are pushing it. Second, your not American, and I would get in even MORE trouble for telling you those numbers.

I understand you have your own opinion, but in the future please don't insult my job as a way to try to get information from me. I know what you are doing and I don't like it. Insulting someone is different that stating your opinion.

If you are so interested in these numbers and you want to see the evidence that I have, but cannot post, I encourage you to join your army in the Intelligence field. It is relatively easy to do so. I don't know about Canada, but in America, if you join the Army as intel, you can later work for the CIA or any other 3 letter secret organization, provided that you get some kind of degree in Psychology or Intelligence.

You want to get into intelligence? Relatively easy. People think it is hard or something, when it is very simple. Here is how you do it through the army:

1. Talk to a recruiter (he/she will work out any problems you have had in your past and they can help you get some stuff expunged)

2. Make it through BCT (basic combat training)

3. Go through intel AIT

4. Serve your country. Not only do you get to protect your country, you also get a great job experience to apply for intel, and you get infinite college money while in the army. (I don't know about other countries)

5. Get a degree in intel or psychology

And thats pretty much it. If you want to see what's going on and want to help, than thats the best route.

Tell you what, I won't state any more facts that I am not allowed to post statistics. Let me remind you that people can post whatever the hell they want on the internet: Fake facts, exaggerated stories, etc. The media is no better.


Now, if you are American, I can tell you how to access more true stories. Go and talk to your local recruiter, and tell him you are thinking about joining the army. Ask him to hook you up with something that is called an AKO account. Army Knowledge Online. You will be able to sign up at www.us.army.mil and then read about what is going on overseas. Now, only do this if you don't mind being constantly bugged by the recruiter.

Other than that, I will have to ask my drill sergeant of a reliable source of info about what is going on overseas, and I will then post it so all of you can read it. I hate it when people are uninformed about things. This is my solution. I will have a link for a reliable, civilian accessable website in a few days hopefully.

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

That's all CT can ask, that you provide some kind of backup for the things that you state. it is just a little too convenient when you state things as facts, tell us you have proof, but then are unable to actually give any of it, that's the only critcism.

Saying "You're wrong, but I can't show you why" just doesn't really work. We're all aware of the fact that certain kinds of information just aren't civilian knowledge, and fair enough, but we can only work with what we've got and do the best we can with it.

[Grandiagod]

Re: President Bush

Hey guys. I have super secret information that Bush is actually a woman.

But I can't tell you my sources because they are super covert.

But it's true because I say it is.

Also, join the army join the army join the army.

I'm using this post to recruit you join the army join the army join the army come kill some Iraqis with us join the army.

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

Out of curiosity, do you do things that -aren't- troll?

[8Shade8]

Re: President Bush

Hey guys. I have super secret information that Bush is actually a woman.

But I can't tell you my sources because they are super covert.

But it's true because I say it is.

Also, join the army join the army join the army.

I'm using this post to recruit you join the army join the army join the army come kill some Iraqis with us join the army.

Wow, you blew what I am trying to do WAY out of proportion. Lol. I don't get paid enough to recruit people into the army.

[Grandiagod]

Re: President Bush

Out of curiosity, do you do things that -aren't- troll?

No I was pointing out the absurdity of telling someone to join Army intelligence so that they can verify that the information used in an internet debate is correct rather than actually using identifiable sources.

After all, being an intelligence officer he must know that information is only as good as its source.

Also, the post was basically the most blatant plug for Army recruitment I have seen, despite what he says.

[evilcowgod]

Re: President Bush

Do you agree or disagree with that actions Bush has taken during his 2 terms in office? Do you think Bush has proper justification on the war in Iraq or do you think the war is pointless?

Discuss

The war is ultimately pointless, George Bush and all the other republicans out there can kid themselves all they want, but the fact it, it's just another war like Vietnam.

The war has no point to it anymore, why are we trying to shove democracy down their throats? Every country is different.

The main reason why we went there was to get Saddam out of power. As if it makes any difference. OK Saddam is gone, but what now? Voting and democracy is great and all, don't get me wrong, but there's no point in trying to change the way a country works by going to war.

War is meant to be a last resort, a course of action taken when serious deputes arise between countries. It's been proven that there were no weapons of mass destruction within Saddam's reach, so therefore they're no threat to us anymore?

[jewpinthethird]

Re: President Bush

Fun Fact #361:

Before the United States invaded Iraq, it was a sovereign nation. Now, four years later, it's in the midst of a civil war, every morning the streets of Baghdad are littered with the tortured corpses of innocent Iraq civilians, we aren't any closer to finding Osama bin Laden, we never found any WMDs and this war has no end in sight.

I don't see this war having a happy ending.

[8Shade8]

Re: President Bush

The war is ultimately pointless, George Bush and all the other republicans out there can kid themselves all they want, but the fact it, it's just another war like Vietnam.

The war has no point to it anymore, why are we trying to shove democracy down their throats? Every country is different.

The main reason why we went there was to get Saddam out of power. As if it makes any difference. OK Saddam is gone, but what now? Voting and democracy is great and all, don't get me wrong, but there's no point in trying to change the way a country works by going to war.

War is meant to be a last resort, a course of action taken when serious deputes arise between countries. It's been proven that there were no weapons of mass destruction within Saddam's reach, so therefore they're no threat to us anymore?

Lol, well, you do have a point. I can agree that this war is slighlty pointless. Bush's "reson" for still being over there are the terrorists. It will take FOREVER to eliminate them. We are most likely going to get pulled out of Iraq when President Bush looses power. We are going to look like idiots and punks when that happens....

Btw. So far I have looked into good sources for the war that civilians can access. Now, the only way to see the truth behind the media, is to look at multiple sources and compare there stories.

Here are two you can compare:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

http://www.foxnews.com

Edit: Still looking into sites that have really good information.

[Garthhh]

Re: President Bush

President Bush has been an arrogant bigot from the start. For the most part, he does things his way. He leaves little room for compromise or diplomacy. He rushed us into an unnecessary war for all the wrong reasons. He is also chipping away at the civil liberties that are the foundation of America. On top of that, he seems to support criminals (Libby) and seems to have a whole lot of scandals going on around him. Bush also acts harshly whenever someone is critical of him. Notice that there aren't too many Citgo stations around anymore? They started disappearing after the Venezuelan dictator called Bush "the devil." Citgo is Venezuelan gas.

Bush has been catering to the rich and been driving his buddies' companies profits skyward. Halliburton, for example. Dick Cheney used to be the president of it. He still holds stocks. Also, the rich have been getting tax cut after tax cut. One of the Republican-controlled Congress's last passed bills was a tax cut that gave the wealthiest 1% of America 38% of the total tax cut money. The second largest amount went to the wealthiest 10%. The rest went to the majority of America.

In the aftermath of Katrina, the Greeks offered to send over two fully equipped hospital ships. Bush, on the other hand, turned down this offer so that he could rent out two cruise ships from a company that is a huge supporter of the Republican party. Sounds like corruption on some level to me.

After 9/11, Bush and the government began to order record numbers of brand new, $300 million a piece fighter jets. What better way to fight box cutter wielding terrorists? Basically, Bush is and Congress are wasting tax money. About half a trillion dollars a year is being spent on the military. The budgets for education, public works, state governments, local governments, etc. have all been cut so that the military can spend more to buy things that only end up eliminating thousands of people.

But yeah, I think Bush is a dolt.

[Wootsicle]

Re: President Bush

I was just on my way home and heard Capital G on the radio.
Good lord I love Trent Reznor, and everything he stands for.

Speaking of, George Bush pretty much just fails at everything he tries to do. None of the choices he has made have helped out country, whatsoever, and I'm rather glad we'll be bidding fair well to him soon.