President Bush

[Relambrien]

Re: President Bush

George bush is a douche

Read the rules.

1. Only post if you can contribute something to the topic/debate. This means no more: "What <insert name> Said" , or "I agree/disagree".

4. Since this is a Critical Thinking Forum use evidence to back up your statement if needed. This means no more: "The Bible says so." Actually find the verse that says so (just an example).

You failed to follow both of these rules. Next time, try posting something worthwhile.

[amandaissingle]

Re: President Bush

The President can command troops to go anywhere, but only Congress can declare war. According to a teacher of mine, there have only been four wars in American history where Congress actually declared war. I *think* two of them were the War of 1812 and World War II, but I forget the others. Maybe WWI and and the Civil War, I don't know.

Of course, he had no source for that, and thus neither do I, so think of that anyway you want. My point is just that since the President is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, he can command the troops to go anywhere. To actually declare "war," Congressional consent is required.

but since we're currently in a war w/ iraq doesn't that mean that congress declared war?

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

No... Operation Iraqi Freedom is not actually a war. It is a Military Operation.

As such, no formal declaration of war has ever been made, which lets the American government skirt neatly around plenty of restrictions and issues that they would otherwise face.

[amandaissingle]

Re: President Bush

Overthrowing the one leader that was keeping the inner turmoil of the nation in check, replacing him with basically nobody, and completely failing to accomplish any goals of the reconstruction that were promised doesn't sound very helpful.

Tens of thousands of civilians, millions in destroyed property and infrastructure, a looming civil war, and renewed religious strife don't sound very helpful.

But at least we're trying to help and that's more than I can say for anyone else in this world.

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

Trying to help in a way that makes things worse isn't a very good way to try and help. If that's the help you offer: Civil war, homelessness and death, perhaps you should stop trying to help people?

If nothing else, waiting to help people until they, you know, actually -ask- for your help might be advised also.

[amandaissingle]

Re: President Bush

No... Operation Iraqi Freedom is not actually a war. It is a Military Operation.

As such, no formal declaration of war has ever been made, which lets the American government skirt neatly around plenty of restrictions and issues that they would otherwise face.

so why do people always say "oh but bush and the WAR in iraq is ruining everything(etc.)"

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

Because by every reasonable standard it -is- a war, and one of my biggest criticisms of the Bush administration is that he doesn't have the guts to come right out and say it.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was a hostile, almost entirely unprovoked invasion of foreign forces to overthrow the government and replace it with one that would treat America more advantageously.

By sheltering it under a veneer of lending succor to this beleagured population who was crying out for liberation, and would shower the americans with flowers and candy (They left out the key word: 'Exploding') all it does it make the US look like a big 'ol bully who doesn't even have enough respect for the rest of the world to come right out and say "Yes, we're overthrowing the government because we don't like it, that a problem?"

[amandaissingle]

Re: President Bush

that doesn't seem right and i've never looked at it from that perspective before it seems like all bush is doing is trying to earn more power for the U.S. by Knocking everyone else down

[ljw5021]

Re: President Bush

Also, the four wars that Congress actually declared were:
-War of 1812.
-Civil War.
-WWII.
-Vietnam.

Actually, there were eleven nations that congress declared war on. Four wars, eleven nations.

[ljw5021]

Re: President Bush

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. But the rules of the forum are pretty clear that if you want to forward a claim, you need to support your claim with evidence. And basically saying "Wow, you guys are completely wrong" is a pretty heavy statement to be making with no evidence to back it up.

Exactly, these people need to follow the rules. They're making claims based on assumptions, not evidence. It's just that some people on here don't take the time or brain power to differentiate the two. Anyone can say "THIS IS FACT", but it takes a special individual to say "THIS IS FACT, and HERE is the hardcore unbiased proof of it."

[ljw5021]

Re: President Bush

Because by every reasonable standard it -is- a war, and one of my biggest criticisms of the Bush administration is that he doesn't have the guts to come right out and say it.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was a hostile, almost entirely unprovoked invasion of foreign forces to overthrow the government and replace it with one that would treat America more advantageously.

By sheltering it under a veneer of lending succor to this beleagured population who was crying out for liberation, and would shower the americans with flowers and candy (They left out the key word: 'Exploding') all it does it make the US look like a big 'ol bully who doesn't even have enough respect for the rest of the world to come right out and say "Yes, we're overthrowing the government because we don't like it, that a problem?"

In 2002 an overwhelming majority of Americans favored military action in Iraq.

What happened to change it? Did they think we would fight this "war" with no casualties?

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

In 2002 an overwhelming majority of Americans favored military action in Iraq.

What happened to change it? Did they think we would fight this "war" with no casualties?

That's functionally what they were promised. Like Americans in Vietnam, and the British in World War One before them, "Home by christmas" turned into "Home by the end of the decade" and they'd had enough. More people have died on -each- side since Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" than died on both sides together before it. They didn't think there would be no casualties, they thought that when their leader says "it's over, we won" that no more of their sons and daughters need to die.

Like Vietnam, the current US Government is falling afoul of a credibility gap. Reports come back from the American Military saying one thing, and then reports come back from less biased news reporters saying the opposite. The goals they claimed to be trying to acheive turned out to be different from the ones they currently seem to be aiming for.

Their staunchest allies in Operation Enduring Freedom became more and more hesitant when Operation Iraqi Freedom went underway, and more and more the international community feels tricked and misled by the United States.

I think the moment when they lost support was when the reports were leaked that those highest up in the American government, in the wake of 9/11, -ordered- those looking into the causes of the 9/11 attacks to find a way to connect it to Iraq, even though no such link existed.

Once it became clear that a horribly tragic event was being used as an -excuse- to carry out an operation that they'd been hoping to do since well beforehand, Bush's approval rating started a slide that bottomed out lower than any other president in history.

[ljw5021]

Re: President Bush

That's functionally what they were promised. Like Americans in Vietnam, and the British in World War One before them, "Home by christmas" turned into "Home by the end of the decade" and they'd had enough. More people have died on -each- side since Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" than died on both sides together before it. They didn't think there would be no casualties, they thought that when their leader says "it's over, we won" that no more of their sons and daughters need to die.

Like Vietnam, the current US Government is falling afoul of a credibility gap. Reports come back from the American Military saying one thing, and then reports come back from less biased news reporters saying the opposite. The goals they claimed to be trying to acheive turned out to be different from the ones they currently seem to be aiming for.

Their staunchest allies in Operation Enduring Freedom became more and more hesitant when Operation Iraqi Freedom went underway, and more and more the international community feels tricked and misled by the United States.

I think the moment when they lost support was when the reports were leaked that those highest up in the American government, in the wake of 9/11, -ordered- those looking into the causes of the 9/11 attacks to find a way to connect it to Iraq, even though no such link existed.

Once it became clear that a horribly tragic event was being used as an -excuse- to carry out an operation that they'd been hoping to do since well beforehand, Bush's approval rating started a slide that bottomed out lower than any other president in history.

Well then the average intelligence of the very American public who doesn't approve of Bush is pretty low if they thought we could fight a ground war with no casualties. They didn't use it as an excuse, Hussein's actions and Clinton's negligence provided plenty of cause.

[devonin]

Re: President Bush

Well then the average intelligence of the very American public who doesn't approve of Bush is pretty low if they thought we could fight a ground war with no casualties. They didn't use it as an excuse, Hussein's actions and Clinton's negligence provided plenty of cause.

Yeah...nothing says "Stupid" like listening to what your national leader and his government explicitly tell you.

Also...Clinton's "negligence" a) created a large enough military for Bush to misuse it horribly and still not get his ass kicked and b) completely obliterated what little potential for nuclear capability Iraq had in the wake of the Iran-Iraq war.

Nothing says "Negligent" quite like actually fixing the problem your successor pretended wasn't fixed as an excuse to launch an invasion.

[FortyTwo]

Re: President Bush

Let me just state, that I am no Bush fan.

But I think it'd be interesting to see how we see him in the long run. Bush has the lowest approval ratings since Harry Truman (who had an approval rating of 23%), with the exception of Nixon, yet many historians today credit him as being one of the top 10 presidents in our history. So I think it'd be interesting to see how history looks upon George Bush.

And yeah, I know Nixon had one of the worst presidencies of our time, but his was mired in scandal due to Watergate, not due to an issue like Iraq, which is one of Bush's main reasons of why his approval ratings are so low.