Acceptable Suicide?

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Well, don't neglect to bring up the other two types of suicide (off the top of my head). Suicide bombers and forfeiting one's life for anothers to be saved. Neither of those two are looking for a simple escape, but know perfectly well what they are doing.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.

Rzr, give me -ANY- definition of "suicidal" other than "A person who wants to end their own life" that is valid and useful.

Then prove to me that it is a cultural majority judging out of ignorance to define "suicidal" as "Having the desire to end ones own life" It's what the word means. When you demonstrate that behavior, you have that term applied to you. This is the equivalent of trying to say that you only have black hair because the blond majority judges you as being different. It's a truism by definition: "Suicidal people want to end their own life" it's very simple and straightforward and culture has nothing at all to do with it.

The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.

And yet the overwhelming majority of failed suicide attempters report that they last thing they thought before they passed out/thought they were going to die, was to regret having taken that step. The much more overwhelming majority of failed suicide attempters after having been tested and treated for the various conditions that usually lead to the decision also say they regret having tried it.

Biologically it is -NEVER- in your personal best interest to terminate your own life unless you have rationally concluded that the betterment of your tribe/species is assured. You'll also notice that I said if you can prove you are rational and in sound mind, I support your right to kill yourself.

If you have a terminal condition and are draining your family's money despite knowing you're going to die from this anyway, I support your right to suicide.

If you have a chemical imbalance in your brain that is lowering the production of endorphins leading you into clinical depression which doesn't reflect your healthy state of mind, and you can be easily treated, I don't support your right to suicide.

Well, don't neglect to bring up the other two types of suicide (off the top of my head). Suicide bombers and forfeiting one's life for anothers to be saved. Neither of those two are looking for a simple escape, but know perfectly well what they are doing.

Suicide bombers are committing murder, not suicide, and I welcome them into whichever hell accepts people who think any western religion supports the killing of innocent people in the name of their faith. Someone who dies to save someone else's life is doing so rationally and logically and I support their right to do it.

Nothing you've said has addressed the basic premise of my position that several others seem to be willing to accept:

"If the person is found by appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists to be of sound mind and still wish to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such."

What objections remain to this position?

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Because I don't feel like quoting everything you just said I will bed my input like this:

When my suicide attempt failed I most certaintly did not regret trying. I did regret than it was my own mother who found me hanging, and I did regret that I failed in the attempt, but I did not regret trying and (hypothetically) wouldn't have regretted it had I succeeded.

Also, my attempts were induced because of physical abuse. You say the suicide attempters can be easily treated etc? Well, again with the personal experiences, I was beat WHILE in the mental hospital for rehabilitating my state of mind.

Finally, obviously it is biologically irrational to commit suicide. However, if you were put in the following situation what would you do:

You and your life partner/mother/father/sibling etc have both been bitten by a poisonous animal. You have enough of the antidote to save one of you. You pick the other. That is technically suicide, but it would be a form of suicide to praise one for choosing.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

That is not suicide. Suicide is the act of ending your own life. This is not the same as allowing yourself to die to save someone else.

Sacrifice != Suicide

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

No, it is suicide. One could just as easily sacrifice the other to save their own life.
They're in there right mind and are completely aware of their actions. Sacrifice does = suicide.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Sacrificing the other to save your own life = murder
Sacrificng yourself to save their life = sacrifice
Killing yourself in a largely consequential vacuum = suicide

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Sacrificing the other to save your own life = murder
Sacrificng yourself to save their life = sacrifice
Killing yourself in a largely consequential vacuum = suicide

No. Sacrificing yourself is the same as suicide. Sacrificing others for yourself is murder. But sacrificing yourself to save others is also a form of suicide. You know what you're doing. You can control it. You can stop it. But you continue to do it.

[KlingPosnot]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

I tend to view suicide as a personal decision to take your own life...thus I side with devonin in saying that sacrifice would not be suicide...in most situations...because you are not the one taking your life, you are simply being forced into a place where you or the other person will be killed...on the other hand there are "sacrifices" such as the japanese kamikaze or seppuku where you are merely asked to kill yourself to benefit others; I view these as a true form of suicide as the people committing them aren't put into a situation where death is guaranteed.

[Das Mustafah]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Sacrificing the other to save your own life = murder

Typo?


I can think of one situation where suicide would be an option, and that would be in the case of quickening an already imminent death as a means to end suffering. I literally cannot think of any other circumstance to justify suicide, but if anyone can think of another you can let me know.

I won't debate whether suicide requires courage or bravery, I think it can be either, but by nature suicide is a selfish act.

And let's say that I've attempted suicide--not to hold it over anyone's head or pretend it somehow makes my opinion more valid--but so that "suicide elitists" will consider my opinion instead of dismissing it.

Edit: Also, allowing yourself to die to save someone else IS NOT suicide. I don't even see how it's related or why it's being discussed.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

A coup de grace' as suicide? Possibly, but not unless the person to be killed requested it.

[FictionJunction]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

No. Sacrificing yourself is the same as suicide. Sacrificing others for yourself is murder. But sacrificing yourself to save others is also a form of suicide. You know what you're doing. You can control it. You can stop it. But you continue to do it.

don't argue against set definitions. The act of commiting suicide isn't solely bound to ending one's life. A person can kill himself to save others. The desire to die is replaced by a desire to save someone else; fear is present but it doesn't outweigh the desire to save. A person committing suicide may be afraid of death but his desire to die is far greater than his fear. Sacrifice and suicide aren't the same as the motives are different.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Fj, it depends on what you're sacrificing. If you sacrifice your own life in any way, it's suicide. Yes, it's sacrifice, but it's also suicide. If you sacrifice an animal to appease the gods, that's sacrifice without suicide.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Now you're just using sacrifice ambiguously. I think we can agree on some definitions here:

Suicide: The act of taking one's own life
Sacrifice: The act of giving something up for someone else

Yes, the thing you can give up can be your life, but there is a very large connotative difference there. Me killing myself because I no longer wish to live is not nearly the same thing as ensuring someone else's life continues by giving up my own.

My motive is the end of my life, I kill myself, Suicide.
My motive is the continuation of your life, I sacrifice myself, Sacrifice.

You see the key difference there?

In both cases your life ends, but in one case you did it because you wanted you to die, and in another you did it because you wanted them to live. That you had to give your life was coinicidental, you'd also have given up your wallet, your left arm, or a 1956 ford mustang convertible to satisfy the same desire.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

But my point is you are in good-mind and know you are killing yourself to spare anothers. Yes, sacrifice yourself to save another is one thing. But you're still intentionally forfeiting your life. It's not murder. It's not natural-causes. And those are the only other two forms of death (excluding paranormal). But when you kill yourself with the only motive to kill yourself, that's full fledged suicide. Sacrificing yourself is still suicide because nobody is killing you directly and it's not natural causes.

[Shenlon]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

The way I see it, I reckon if you're willing to sacrifice yourself to save a loved one and somehow fail or are prevented from doing so, a part of you dies regardless. And Rzr I feel you can't get past that little step in suicide and can't accept the difference between the two.

I think in most cases where someone steps in to save someone else's life at the cost of their own, the decision is quick. And what about hired body guards? Where it's a job. I'm not sure what the legal status of suicide is in the states at the moment but I know part of the job description is to take bullets for the president if at all possible. Does money negate the suicidal qualities of taking a potentially fatal bullet? I doubt it. It's the sacrifice part. Sacrifice your life for the leader of your country, or for a loved one. Essentially something equal to or greater than your own life, in your own opinion. To someone in that position /not/ sacrificing their life is probably worse.

And also another key difference: suicide is the deliberate ending of your own life. I'm fairly certain you have to kill yourself for that to happen. I can't think of an example where you'd have to sacrifice your own life to save someone else's by physically ending your own life. Pushing someone out of harms way from an incoming mac truck, for instance, wouldn't constitute as suicide at all because of the short response time a saver would require. In that case at best you can only speculate if the person was at all conscience of the fact they were going to die by pushing the other person out the way.

Anyways, I could go on. The bottom line is I shouldn't say things like that

Edit: Egads! I was being tongue in cheek.