Acceptable Suicide?

[Zythus]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

For your information, US legitimacy does not differ far.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Also, Canada has the same laws against attempted suicide that the US does, though we'd probably be more inclined to put people into counselling rather than jail or an institution. Sure we're more left-wing than the US, and generally Canadians seem to be more lefty in general, but my support for individual rights doesn't stem from Canadian law, it just is happily in line with a lot of Canadian law.

[Das Mustafah]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Also, Canada has the same laws against attempted suicide that the US does

Oh, I had no idea. I had thought for years that suicide is legal in Canada.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Having a law against suicide in general is stupid. Most of the people who commit suicide are 'rebels' and aren't going to listen to authority and abide my the law as is, so tempting them isn't a very good idea. However, with suicide comes the grief in everyone near that person, hence the emotions behind the laws.

But, shadowcliff, your point is obvious. If one commits suicide than one will be unable to suffer the laws wrath. But like I said, the temptation endured by the suicidal person just for thor laws being there adds to everything.

And both of your posts are pointless. Stay out of CT if you're inimit write sentences like that and think they're intellectual. They're not.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Having a law against suicide in general is stupid.

I don't think making it illegal is going to "tempt" people to kill themselves. Quite the opposite. Besides the purpose of the law is that it allows police to take into protective custody those people that try and fail to kill themselves. And by bringing them up on charges, the court can then rule psychiatric evaluations and for the large percentage of suiciders who are clinically depressed or suffering a chemical imbalance, get them the treatment they need to deal with the problem.

People always crack jokes about laws against suicide without ever seeming to realise that without them, these people could never be forced to deal with their problems.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Protective custody is a joke with the mass of undiscovered police brutality.

But think of the psychology of the suicidal people. Most are a rabble and have a thing for defying authority. Perhaps tempt isn't the best word, but making suicide illegal is stupid. It's going to happen anyway. Like drug trafficing, murder, rape, robbery, intoxicated driving, and fraud. They keep happening and have been illegal for centuries.

It's not that suicide being illegal is like the forbidden fruit, it's just that a rebellious person may simply see it as a way out of a rough situation and the chance to defy authority at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone for them.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Protective custody is a joke with the mass of undiscovered police brutality.

Once again you need to provide evidence to support a claim like "Mass police brutality" Further, if it is undiscovered, how do you know it exists? Yet further, do you have any idea how suicide watch functions in a prison?

But think of the psychology of the suicidal people. Most are a rabble and have a thing for defying authority.

Wow, you've simply never known a depressively suicidal person have you. Well, let me give you a first hand account: I've -BEEN- a suicidally depressed person, and I'm not rabble, I don't have a thing for defying authority, and even if I did, those things had NOTHING AT ALL to do with my being suicidal.

And did you even READ what I posted? The purpose of a law agianst attempting suicide isn't supposed to be a deterrant to commit suicide. It is to give the state a legal right to force you to seek treatment and help for your problems. If you got to the point where you tried to kill yourself, clearly the best intentions of your friends and family weren't enough to make you admit you had an issue that needed treatment, so the law exists because you can then be MADE to seek help. If you've ever known someone who needed to be in rehab for drug or alcohol problems, you will know how close to impossible it is to make someone get that vital help voluntarily. The law enables the state to step in and force you to be treated.

I think you need to learn a little more about clinical and manic depression, as well as suicide.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Though I prefer to leave personal experiences out of a debate, I will tell you, devonin, I have been locked up in metal hospitals twice for repeated suicide attempts. As for undiscovered police brutality, it's more of a matter of it being unreported. Again, personal experiences which I will elaborate on if you do so wish.

Now, I agree with the state right's to force a suicidal person to seek help, but making it illegal is again, stupid. Like I just said, making it lillegal isn't going to stop it. However, putting more money and effort into creating new and more efficient programs for assisting mentally unstable individuals is a much more productive method. Making suicide illegal is like saying sex is illegal (bad analogy but you get my point). Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's going to stop. But putting the money used for enforcing it into making it safer is much wiser.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

However, putting more money and effort into creating new and more efficient programs for assisting mentally unstable individuals is a much more productive method.

You still don't get it do you. So they make these wonderful programs, they are efficient, effective and helpful....and NOBODY GOES TO THEM. Why? Because most people who seriously need these things refuse to do so, either they don't care, or they insist they don't have a problem. The way we -make- them get that help is just that, to MAKE them get that help.

Let me state it again more clearly: The purpose of making suicide illegal is not in any way, shape, or form, designed to make people not do it. It is NOT a deterrant law. It is a law created solely to allow the state to force people to seek treatment. It is a convenient excuse to enable the state to help people.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Perfectly stated. I withdraw my argument.

I do see why it should be illegal. However, I also see why it shouldn't be illegal. I mean, it seems pointless to outlaw something that's going to happen anyway, but I understand the benefits of it. What there should be is a program for the suicide attempters to be forced or volunteer to go to that helps them without the law riding their backs.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

The only way to force them into that program is if the laws of the state already dictate that such is a suitable consequence for attempting suicide. Why have to muck around in each and every case trying to demonstrate why someone should be put into one of these programs when you can just make a law that says "You try this, you go here"?

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

The thing is, there should be a system for helping emotionaly unstable people enforced by the law without making it illegal. Sounds like an oxymoron, huh? Well, the American founding fathers were stuck and had to invent something completely new, so it's not impossible.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Um...the state can only make people do things by force of law. There's no other way for the state to make you do something. What do the founding fathers (Who based most of their constitution off the british constitutional modelanyway) have to do with anything?

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

They were an analogy. I'm saying that they were put in a tight situation. And there had never been a successful democracy (not counting Rome and Greece) and they needed to do the impossible which at the time was to have Thomas Jefferson draft the constitution (which, for the record, was mostly theorized based on John Locke's perspectives). And they did it. They did the impossible.

Well, if you're saying that finding a way to force people to not commit suicide is impossible unless enforced my the law then you're wrong. Think about it. The law isn't perfect. Hypothetically, use a more embracing method of enforcement such as being polite and thoughtful. Like a salesmen. He wouldn't say 'you're hong to buy this or else' he'd say 'hello there. I'm selling this and I think it'd be good for you because...'
See?

[Das Mustafah]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Not adding anything new or original here, but rape and murder will also continue to happen despite laws against them. People will always do these things, and though this doesn't go along the same purpose Devonin stated about suicide laws, legal restraints are necessary.

Also, the law needs to be as harsh as the people who want to break it. Requesting that someone please not rob a store or kill innocent people doesn't seem to cut it. Again, not really in the same vein as suicide, but what's the point in having soft laws for hard crimes? The system has limitless flaws, but it got where it is through trial and error.