Acceptable Suicide?

[Zythus]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Suicide laws? For a healthy person, this law does not in any way affect them. It only applies to the people who are indulging themselves in their trauma, etc. Now, the ironic thing is, why would they abide to such a law when they are not in the (by society's standards) right mind, even to regard such a rule as the law? It seems absurd to have such pointlessness.

However, I see luminosity in the prevention of suicide, say a, like Devonin said, "You try this, you go here." If this was placed in effect, I would think it may violate human rights issues, seeing how it would be forceful "quarantine".

In my opinion, suicide as a whole is personal freedom, its an option and a final unregrettable resort that, in part, takes much courage or blight to accomplish.
Did it sound like a good thing? By society's stereotypical standards, no. But I do respect those who do it for valid and honorable reasons.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Not adding anything new or original here, but rape and murder will also continue to happen despite laws against them. People will always do these things, and though this doesn't go along the same purpose Devonin stated about suicide laws, legal restraints are necessary.

Also, the law needs to be as harsh as the people who want to break it. Requesting that someone please not rob a store or kill innocent people doesn't seem to cut it. Again, not really in the same vein as suicide, but what's the point in having soft laws for hard crimes? The system has limitless flaws, but it got where it is through trial and error.

The first part of that I already said (as long as I understand it correctly).

Now, zythus, I completely agree with every single word you just said.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

So having apparantly admitted that you feel these people are NOT in their right mind, you also think they should be able to exercise personal freedom to suicide? Doesn't really work both ways. Personal freedoms are only applicable when you are mentally capable of making free decisions. Acting under the influence of a chemical imbalance in your brain chemistry doesn't constitute a free choice.

The purpose of these laws is to help people who won't or can't help themselves when it is clearly in their best interests to recieve that help. If you get shot and are unconscious, the doctor is able to "violate human rights" as Zythus said and treat you despite your not having given them permission to do so, because it is clearly in your best interest to be helped, and you are not currently in a state of lucid mental awareness to say so.

How is manic or clinlical depression any different? You are demonstrably not in your right mind, and not thinking logically or rationally, so why shouldn't people who are be able to act in your obvious best interests? Treating you so that you don't want to kill yourself certainly seems like an improvement in your life situation.

[Zythus]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

The only way that your argument is valid is when the suicider has been proven that he/she is deluded by his/her insanity. However, I said that only people with a valid reason to suicide can be called legitimate. And there is the biggest question that I was tempted in my last post to throw out there but refrained from doing so because it may go off topic: Who has the call to say that a person's reasons for suicide is valid? Who has the supremacy to judge a person as insane or is right for treatment?

(In the context that the suicider is sane, by whatever form of judgment.)
I said in my last post "(by society's standards)". The problem with it is that the individual himself/herself can justify his/her reasons for suicide as valid when society does not. And thats the significance of human rights, how is it just that another person can forcefully throw you in a treatment when you possess the freedom to suicide backed by your own VALID justification? This isn't only suicide anymore, in general, it is the questioning of society's standards.

I'll let you answer my question.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

The only person who can judge the validity of ones suicide or suicide attempt is the suicide attempter. They're the only person who has suffered the individual trauma that has driven them to that point. Because socity tends to shelter itself from the atrocities that are in, many don't experience them. Those who don't are the majority. The majority gets deemed as the 'norm'. The norm dictates the 'abnormal' and deems them as suicidal. Furthermore they deem suicidal as insane. But since thy've never experienced it they have no right to judge it.

[devonin]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Who has the call to say that a person's reasons for suicide is valid? Who has the supremacy to judge a person as insane or is right for treatment?

Appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists do. If the person is found to be of sound mind and still wishes to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such.

The norm dictates the 'abnormal' and deems them as suicidal.

Um...no. I'm pretty sure that they deem "People who want to kill themselves" as suicidal. There's nothing in there for societal norms to influence. You want to kill yourself? You are suicidal. You don't want to kill yourself? You aren't suicidal. It's an issue of what the word means.

Furthermore they deem suicidal as insane. But since thy've never experienced it they have no right to judge it.

Seems pretty clear to me that people who are suffering from a chemical imbalance in their brain that is not the way the brain is supposed to function, and is leading them to act in ways that are not characteristic of how they would be acting were their brain operating as it was deisgned to don't need someone else to have personally gone through it to recognize it.

I mean this stuff is medically testable. They can simply tell you whether these things are properly in balance or not, so once again, I don't think a) Society concludes that suicidal people are -insane- so much as troubled of mind or b) that you need to somehow have been suicidal to analyze someone's brain chemistry and see that things aren't right.

[Zythus]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

controversial isn't it. I would say that:

"Appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists do. If the person is found to be of sound mind and still wishes to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such."

sums up the whole topic of suicide being acceptable.

[Das Mustafah]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Nothing is new or unique about suffering, and neither are the varying abilities of individuals to cope. The only thing to judge, which should be judged, is the severity/longevity of an individual's situation compared with their mental state.

How do you feel about someone who is just bored with life and doesn't want to continue? Assume that they are considered mentally stable.

[Zythus]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

If they wish to suicide, by all means do so.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Nobody is saying that suffering is a new experience. However, if a girl who was raped kills herself [hypothetically] and she is deemed insane that's not right. The people that stereotyped her that was most likely haven't experienced rape, therefore are unfit to judge the emotions of its aftermath.

Nothing is new or unique about suffering, and neither are the varying abilities of individuals to cope. The only thing to judge, which should be judged, is the severity/longevity of an individual's situation compared with their mental state.

How do you feel about someone who is just bored with life and doesn't want to continue? Assume that they are considered mentally stable.

Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.

[UnkownMan]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

I find suicide acceptable when the suicidee is in great deals of pain. Not because they are "emotional". If you are drawing A LOT of blood but you don't wanna wait till the death, that is a good time to kill yourself. If you lost your girlfriend or your dad/mom/yiff died, NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

I find suicide acceptable when the suicidee is in great deals of pain. Not because they are "emotional". If you are drawing A LOT of blood but you don't wanna wait till the death, that is a good time to kill yourself. If you lost your girlfriend or your dad/mom/yiff died, NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA.

Speaking from experience, cutting isn't necessarily about drawing blood. For the most part it's about two things: posing or control.

When a person is autho to pose their only doing it to fit into a certain crowd or be like their friends i.e. peer pressure.

When a person is doing it for control it's because they don't have any control in the rest of their lives. When they can control their pain they feel the strength. Personally, when I used to cut myself it was for control. I would do it slowly and up my arm because I could control how much blood was released and how much pain I felt.

[FictionJunction]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.

wrong. as a member of this 'vast majority [that] hasn't suffered the pane that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt' I can easily, and without remorse or guilt, state that suicide, despite the pain that may have instigated the consideration, is an abnormal reaction to circumstances people refuse to be in whether those are expected, unexpected, controllable, or uncontrollable - I believe it's human instinct to do what's best for ourselves, and this tendency can often end in considering suicide as a means to an end of the circumstances that people rather not be in. It's perspective. The vast majority will agree that living is better than being dead, and that suffering is just a part of it. Everyone struggles. I find people who commit suicide to be nothing but greedy cowards. Don't justify other people's suffering for the person committing suicide's own. Death doesn't warrant an escape from reality, it just erases them from it. No amount of suffering justifies putting one's self aside and hurting those who care.

What would be a justifiable reason to commit suicide? Things beyond one's control: medical conditions, etc, and even then it could be sketchy.

Why am I an adequate judge of character? Because everyone else is, too.
It is them who stray away from common sense and go down the path of greed. We are who reel them back in.

[rzr]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Just because they seek suicide as a final resort doesn't at all mean that they are cowards. In fact, it's more courageous than anything the 'vast majority' can think to do, or has the courage to do on their own.

The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.

[FictionJunction]

Re: Acceptable Suicide?

Just because they seek suicide as a final resort doesn't at all mean that they are cowards. In fact, it's more courageous than anything the 'vast majority' can think to do, or has the courage to do on their own.

anyone could do it if the mindset was adequate. They do it as an escape. When has escaping from a problem ever been affiliated to courageousness?

The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.

uh, this is an absolute statement and is far from the truth. People often express why they commit suicide through writing and recording prior to their death.

back to why it's a matter of perspective.

Perspective like opinion can be either educated or not. Educated opinions have much more value than a simple I don't like it or opinions influenced by what is inherently wrong, naive, and stupid under normal circumstances (i.e trying to eat soup with a fork, or insulting a friend who helped you get up after performing a stunt you didn't land just because your pride was hurt - it's wrong of you to insult your friend for helping you, and it is plain dumb to scoop liquid with a fork). If I were to claim I need to commit suicide because I cannot bear the troubles of my life I'd be wrong in claiming so. I wouldn't be aware of it at that present time as I would be influenced by the poison that catalyzed that channel of thought.