On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

[the sun fan]

For many years, FFR has been a place where I truly believe that someone can become a top-tier forum player on. I have considered it a very high point of my pride, going so far as to sig the fact that FFR has had the highest success rate of any internet forum/community in mafia champ games. I have believed that the game, at its core, is very emotional and as such, insults and personal attacks are just part of the game. I think that, if I had really thought about it, that I would justify the personal aspect of the game as being necessary. I speak not only for myself when I say that I think that this is no longer the case.

I think that there is room for very, very competitive games while also being more respectful to one another than we have been over these years. Its bad for growing the community is one important aspect, and I know the counterargument is to say that "if people get upset in their first game, they're probably not cut out for TWG." I think that there is less truth to this statement than might appear. If the community has standards of decency that are consistently upheld, then necessarily, the newer players will feel more comfortable.

I know this is not a unanimously agreed point, but I do think we, at the very least, should talk formally about whether or not we should reduce the toxicity in games.

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Regardless, I would like another TWG sub forum moderator. I'm not sure how best to choose this person, and would like input on this matter as well.

[T-Force]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

The more I ruminate on it, I think that one of the reasons I've come to enjoy playing games when I do, it's when I don't have to worry as much about whats going to be said about me or my play.
I can dish out as much as I receive, but there's a point where in-game can reach out and touch my anger points outside of the game and that's maybe as much a personal flaw as it is those I'm playing with -- see the last turbo I played in -- but I do agree that we can afford to be at least more respectful and mindful that people behind these usernames and avatars are people. They're friends.

Ultimately we're here to have a good time and there are ways to play that don't rely on dragging our friends through the muck in order to make ourselves look, or feel, an iota better.

My 2c. Hope it makes sense.


EDIT: Maybe we could give post-game threads some time before going up just so we can all chill before flaming in those threads? They're meant for constructive criticism, not to just spew emotional vitriol.

[flashflash account]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

one place where I'd absolutely draw the line is postgame

we should all try to be supportive of each other and good sports during postgame, and focus on our own mistakes for people who want to improve

the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating is the worst part of postgame and there's no excuse for it

flaming in a game is whatever although I'm a little bit taken aback when someone wishes to smash another's head open with a brick to "see if anything comes out the ears", even in jest

[inDheart]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i want the current twg mods to seek out another tbh. kick names around like it's a twg or something

i don't think postgame thread timing matters because if it goes up late people just find other ways to postgame

[XelNya]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Alright before I actually post, what are we specifically trying to target to reduce toxicity?

We barely have hard tunnel games.
No one actually bullies anyone.
People get a bit heated and say some stuff with “them there curse words.”
No one intentionally hard throws games on purpose.

Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?

I want to make sure my contribution is as accurate, because frankly I don’t see an actual problem, just a loose, open to interpretation ass hole of conceptual shit.

Like I am asking because I don’t see anything I’d specifically class as “toxic” but my bars are heavily shifted from most of you.

[flashflash account]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?

"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?

[MixMasterLar]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?

I don't think the complaints are about what happens in post game, so no.

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.

“That makes no sense because I was the first to vote for Tony at yesterday’s EoD”

Vs

“No you absolute waste of human space are you fucking dense? I was the first to vote for Tony, why would I do that as scum you fucking dolt”

[MixMasterLar]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Oh people have given me examples before I'm good on that.

I'm asking for a definition so we can have a deeper conversation then our standard "be nice in a game about not being nice" discussions.

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic, TWG is a social game and things get heated, that’s fine. My example is the difference between someone making the choice to be verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending verses not being so, and at the end of the day, that’s where I think the problem lies.

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

And I would argue TWG shouldn’t be defined as a game about not being nice, it’s about problem solving, deduction skills and lying

[MixMasterLar]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic

Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made

I think we can all agree that we have not been enforcing where the line is, and maybe we ought to begin doing that

So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made



So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.

Regardless of why this thread was created, banning certain words/phrases/slurs is not going to fix anything.

There are members of this community that are verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending when they play. THAT, in my opinion, is the issue, and it’s unlikey to be fixed by some sort of modification of the rules.

[_Zenith_]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I think there's clauses of gray areas regarding the subject, and speaking formally about it here, none of the actives have actively bullied or ridiculed an individual in ad hominem fashion to me. The gray area is town having the right to be frustrated at a self-destructive town game or pool, however saying "you're an idiot" should probably be stated like "that was a poor play" because people view that as a personal jest rather than a comment about what happened with poor wording (which is what I did to bug in the most recent game because I really needed him to read Cedo as a wolf and he flipped on me lol).

The last seriously toxic moment I've witnessed in FFRTWG in the last few months was when that Adam guy played with us that one game and I had to sub his slot. He said some really fucked up things and that's inexcusable. Other than that instance, I can't recall a situation that was a fraction as toxic as that event.

There's multiple lines to draw here moving forward, and I think one of the first ones would be dealing with frustration as a whole, or installing some countermeasure to excessive demeanor like repeatedly attacking someone's character rather than keeping discussion game-based. There's a lot of confusion about someone being frustrated but it being taken as toxicity, which I have to agree with defining toxicity withing TWG itself. I think that would be a good first step.

I also agree that post-game should be more about sportsmanship rather than highlighting what went wrong or bashing on any particular team for losing in any given way. There's not enough praise given when players deserve it, and we have some absolutely strong players and promising up-and-comers.

I could continue this, but I feel like I'm dragging this along more than it needed to be, and I apologize if some things I said made little sense, but I'm glad to see even an attempt at figuring out as a collective whole means to improve the community and the matches moving forward.