On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

[Charu]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Bird hugs are better

[DaBackpack]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I don't think rule changes will fix anything. The problem isn't "words", it's "spirit." If a person really wants to say something cruel and harmful to another player, they will find a way to skirt the rules. That's the nature of adversarial social relationships.

"More mods" isn't an answer either. It doesn't address the underlying issues of player toxicity. It really is convenient for us to imagine that our problems can be solved in a top-down manner-- that is, if somebody is being bad, that a mod will swoop in and save the day. Some base level of moderation is required when things really get out of hand (e.g. someone needs to be banned) but the fundamental problem we keep seeing is cultural and contextual. For example, there are things I would say to YoshL that I wouldn't ever say to Gradiant. How would you ever expect a single moderator to correctly interpret what "the line" is, when "the line" is completely different for each player dyad? The answer is, you can't. A top-down solution isn't going to suffice.

The players of the game need to be better at actively policing each other. If you take a step back and look at the "problem" posts in context, you'll notice that they didn't just come out of nowhere. There was an argument, some escalation that got you there. It should have been obvious to other players that, say, MML was escalating and bugkid was clearly uncomfortable, even before MML made his worst posts. Again, TWG isn't made up of posts, it's made up of conversations. If you, as a player, see somebody being made uncomfortable, it is YOUR JOB to speak out and de-escalate the conflict before someone crosses "the line".

Furthermore. As a player, it is your job to treat other players how they expect to be treated. Like I said, I treat different players differently depending on my relationship with them, as well as my differing mental models for them. I know that a player like Xelnya has a tough skin, so if things escalate between the two of us, I don't expect other players to de-facto police us (unless things get REALLY hostile, when I tell Xelyna to cut it the fuck OUT).

On the other hand, bugkid is a new player and most of us really don't know where bugkid's "line" is, so your default behavior should be respectful and dignified, until you and bugkid come to understand each other. And if you misjudge where bugkid's "line" is, our culture should allow for bugkid to speak up and defend themselves, or for other players to speak up to defuse the situation.

The answer to the problem is a culture shift, one where we ALL look out for each other ALWAYS, and we chastise and police each other in-game depending on specific contexts.

TL;DR: This answer is the same vein as "defund the police" IRL

[the sun fan]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

[DaBackpack]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

I'm not against more mods, I just think it doesn't help here. You add a new mod, then what happens? Again, this isn't a problem with the rules or TOS, it's about not being self-aware of how your words hurt others. If we were constantly dealing with rzr situations then I'd agree, but this is different.

What actually seems to be -happening- is that players get heated and go way too far. Honestly there aren't a whole lot of actively hostile characters in this community... it's just that the game very often brings out "that side" of everyone. Am I wrong? If this is accurate then rules changes or banning won't do anything. Like I said, the TWG rules and bans are for openly hostile and subversive players.

Everybody gets mad in this game, and everybody has different ways of expressing that with other players. Reactive hostility CAN and WILL happen, you can't just regulate around that. What we -need- is a general culture of respect and community-driven policing. Each player needs to be able to hear those words, "you're going too far, DBP", and reflexively understand that they are being a problem and hurting people's feelings. Like 80% of hostile rage in this game can be avoided or mitigated by being told to take a fucking break and come back with a clear mind.

Conflict resolution is a part of my job and I understand that sometimes it's embarrassing to openly admit that someone is hurting your feelings. Maybe it's the host's job to receive player complaints and then issue warnings on an ad-hoc basis in OOT. But at the end of the day, it's not administrative action that saves the day, it's a culture of support and decency.

[DaBackpack]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

I've gotten heated in this game too, and sometimes I've made posts I've quickly come to regret. I try to make it a point to immediately apologize to the respective parties and prevent game derailment. I think most people would agree with me when I say that making low blows and harassing players doesn't actually feel good; it feels shitty, but it happens all the time, regardless of alignment. The key is having a social dynamic in place where hostile players can reliably be kept in check by other players (or maybe even the host).

[mellonxcollie]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I 100% agree with you DBP, but sometimes people don't listen or just ignore you calling them out...

it'd need to be an effort from every player not just one or two people in the game

[the sun fan]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

this is what I hope the future will look like

[inDheart]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i view more mods as a positive thing because am i wrong in saying the only current one who often currently clicks to this forum is sunfan, but i think it's a little unfair for him to be "on call" or something while he's playing the current game, as he often is (and when he isn't, he's usually busy or beating himself into being busy)

i wish everyone had the brain power to regret posts later but i'm not sure that is a thing that occurs to everyone in the community, and i think player attempts at intervention are seen more often as something that produces a read than a genuine desire for defusal. no i don't have examples of this

[YoshL]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i actually click the subforum a bunch, at least once every couple days lol

and I still usually take questions from game hosts if sunfan is playing regarding rulings and game resolution stuff

[inDheart]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

oh cool i've just been going "nah they're probably busy"

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

this has been open for quite some time now, what's the plan timelinewise

are we keeping this open another indefinite period, are new mods a thing, are we going to do self policing instead, what's the dealio

[Charu]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

FFRTWG's been cancelled

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

FFRTWG's been cancelled

we had a good run lads

[Funnygurl555]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

vote me for mod

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

funnygurl