Homosexuality.

**Kilroy_x** · 12-5-2007, 10:32 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

My two cents:

Skinner seems to be pretty widely rejected these days. Also research has been done into cognitive gender, and a biological etiology has been found for transsexuality, although not yet for homosexuality.

**ELRayford** · 12-5-2007, 10:34 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

**devonin** · 12-5-2007, 01:09 PM

Re: Homosexuality.

Originally posted by Dark Ronin

I don�t see how every text book I have read could be wrong. But I will bring in my text book tomorrow, give a full citation and type it word for word. Who knows maybe I misinterpreted it, I just don�t see how I could be that far off.

Please do that, and feel free to challenge Chrissi to back up her claims in the same way. That's the way constructive debate happens in this format. Since anyone can put forward pretty much any claim given the anonymity of the internet, it is perfectly acceptable to question someone's qualifications.

I can�t accept some random person who says everyone in psychology is wrong about it because he or she says so.

She hasn't said everyone in psychology is wrong. She's said something along the lines of "I deny that you're getting this information from reputable sources" If you provide these sources, and she truly is a psychology/sexuality major, she should have no trouble finding the same books in her own library and comparing. Then she can respond to that, and the discussion can continue.

**Dark Ronin** · 12-6-2007, 09:00 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

Originally posted by devonin

If you provide these sources, and she truly is a psychology/sexuality major, she should have no trouble finding the same books in her own library and comparing. Then she can respond to that, and the discussion can continue.

Good point. Ok so I couldn�t find my Zimbardo text book, but I do have my general psyc book from freshman year. This book has several modules about sexual orientation so I obviously cant type 8 modules worth of stuff here, but I found a few highlights.

In many cultures homosexual people are often mocked, outcast, or even killed.
"Facing such reactions, homosexual people often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don�t. Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or similarly incapable of becoming homosexual (Halderman, 1994, 2001). Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures (Myers 476).

This study does, however, hint at finding reported recently by other researchers-that women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000;Peplau & Garnets, 2000). This finding accords with other research on men's more "target-specific" sexual arousal. In their self-reports and measured sexual responses, heterosexual men are more aroused by female erotic stimuli, homosexual men by male erotic stimuli. Women, regardless of sexual orientation, respond to both male and female stimuli (Chivers & others, 2003)
(Myers 476-477)

Men's lesser sexual variability is apparent in many other ways as well, notes Roy Baumeister (2000). Across time, across cultures, across situations, and across differing levels of education, religiosity, and peer influence, adult women's sexual drive and interests are more flexible and varying than adult men's- a phenomenon Baumeister calls the gender difference in "erotic plasticity." Women, more than men, for example, prefer to alternate periods of high sexual activity with periods of almost none. (Myers 477)

Despite elevated rates of depression and risk of suicide attempts, most gays and lesbians suffer no psychological disorder (Sandfort & others, 2001). Most people, whether straight or gay, accept their orientation-by electing celibacy; by engaging in promiscuous sex (a choice more commonly made by gay men than by lesbian women0; or by entering into a committed, long-term love relationship (a choice more often made by lesbians than by gays) (Kulkin & others, 2000; Peplau, 1982; Remafedi, 1999; Weinberg & Williams, 1974). Mental health professionals are now more accepting of clients' sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association in 1973 dropped homosexuality from its list of "mental illnesses," as did the World Health Organization in 1993, and Japan's and China's psychiatric associations in 1995 and 2001. (Myers 477)"

Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules. Worth Publishers, New York, 2004.

Ok there it is. This just isn�t any fun though. I'm copying everything from a book, I'm not thinking at all. I hope this clears my name up a bit, but I'm tired of wasting my time on this thread.

**atalkingcow** · 12-6-2007, 10:54 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

Originally posted by Dark Ronin

Good point. Ok so I couldn’t find my Zimbardo text book, but I do have my general psyc book from freshman year. This book has several modules about sexual orientation so I obviously cant type 8 modules worth of stuff here, but I found a few highlights.

In many cultures homosexual people are often mocked, outcast, or even killed.
"Facing such reactions, homosexual people often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don’t. Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or similarly incapable of becoming homosexual (Halderman, 1994, 2001). [Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures (Myers 476).

This study does, however, hint at finding reported recently by other researchers-that women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000;Peplau & Garnets, 2000). This finding accords with other research on men's more "target-specific" sexual arousal. In their self-reports and measured sexual responses, heterosexual men are more aroused by female erotic stimuli, homosexual men by male erotic stimuli. Women, regardless of sexual orientation, respond to both male and female stimuli (Chivers & others, 2003)
(Myers 476-477)

Men's lesser sexual variability is apparent in many other ways as well, notes Roy Baumeister (2000). Across time, across cultures, across situations, and across differing levels of education, religiosity, and peer influence, adult women's sexual drive and interests are more flexible and varying than adult men's- a phenomenon Baumeister calls the gender difference in "erotic plasticity." Women, more than men, for example, prefer to alternate periods of high sexual activity with periods of almost none. (Myers 477)

Despite elevated rates of depression and risk of suicide attempts, most gays and lesbians suffer no psychological disorder (Sandfort & others, 2001). Most people, whether straight or gay, accept their orientation-by electing celibacy; by engaging in promiscuous sex (a choice more commonly made by gay men than by lesbian women0; or by entering into a committed, long-term love relationship (a choice more often made by lesbians than by gays) (Kulkin & others, 2000; Peplau, 1982; Remafedi, 1999; Weinberg & Williams, 1974). Mental health professionals are now more accepting of clients' sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association in 1973 dropped homosexuality from its list of "mental illnesses," as did the World Health Organization in 1993, and Japan's and China's psychiatric associations in 1995 and 2001. (Myers 477)"

Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules. Worth Publishers, New York, 2004.

Ok there it is. This just isn’t any fun though. I'm copying everything from a book, I'm not thinking at all. I hope this clears my name up a bit, but I'm tired of wasting my time on this thread.

So umm...Remind me again, are you saying that homosexuality is or Isn't a choice? Because the giant block of text you posted seems to indicate that it is not a choice, as illustrated by the lines I emboldened.
(Not trying to be an arseface, just wondering.)

**devonin** · 12-6-2007, 02:38 PM

Re: Homosexuality.

Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:

Originally posted by Dark Ronin

Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.

Originally posted by Dark Ronin

Now if you are a girl then its not far fetched. Its nearly proven by the studies that have been done so far. But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books.

In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"

**Coolgamer** · 12-6-2007, 08:45 PM

Re: Homosexuality.

Originally posted by devonin

Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:

In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"

Wow, I think he just proved himself completely wrong.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

**Dark Ronin** · 12-7-2007, 09:46 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

Originally posted by atalkingcow

So umm...Remind me again, are you saying that homosexuality is or Isn't a choice?

Homosexuality is not a choice.

Originally posted by devonin

Dark Ronin: You still haven't come remotely close to proving either of these two statements of yours:

In fact, when we look at these lines from your posted textbook, you actually seem to prove the converse of both of those. Compare your line
"Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice."
with
"Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chose nor willfully changed."

And
" But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books"
with
"Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous."

You'll note it didn't say "A very few women" it said "A very few people"

Well I obviously didn�t copy it all, but I guess it does kinda seem that way doesn�t it. My view is that it isn�t a choice. But everything I said was altered and mocked and I guess I might not have been very clear in the first place. Anyway my original source is gone, I think my roommate is borrowing it. By "very few are truly ambidextrous" I took it as meaning exactly that. Of course there are going to be a few exceptions to every rule. We can easily look at the definition of a human and see that all humans have two arms and two legs, but sure enough there are people with one or three arms and/or legs. That doesn�t mean they aren�t human. So ok I said there are gay people and straight people, but I suppose there can be bi people too. Well of course there are. In light of the new evidence, I can�t even argue that. If you recall my original point was that it isn�t a choice but according to every study I have read mean seem to have even less of a choice than men. That was it. I didn�t mean for anything to be looked at so closely. Yes it did say a very few people, but it also said a lot of stuff about women in there that can�t be ignored. In that general psyc book the handedness analogy is the only mention of the bisexual orientation, so I can�t really go into detail with that. The sexual orientation was only in reference to preference of male or female. Not both. That�s not to say bisexuals can�t help it either, but that book just ignores them. Zimbardo�s book completely rejects them. And I have yet to see any scientific source that puts them into the same category as homo- or hetero- sexuals.

**devonin** · 12-7-2007, 11:59 AM

Re: Homosexuality.

But everything I said was altered and mocked

I'd hardly call "objected to on reasonable grounds" being altered and mocked. If you were being straw manned or attacked, such posts would have been (indeed were, when lines came near to being crossed) dealt with.

And I have yet to see any scientific source that puts them into the same category as homo- or hetero- sexuals

According to the Kinsey Scale posted above, we're looking at 11.6% of white males aged 20-35 and 7% of single females aged 20-35 reading as "Equally heterosexual and homosexual" I'm pretty sure that puts them into a pretty significant category.

**Chrissi** · 12-7-2007, 04:23 PM

Re: Homosexuality.

So far I'm just reading this, don't have time to comment right now, but yes, I did get angry because you seem to twist facts to try to justify whatever beliefs you hold, Dark Ronin. None of those sources you pasted come anywhere near helping your cause, in fact most of them easily disprove you, as others have pointed out so far. The conclusions you come to are based upon your prior assumptions and interpretations of what these facts mean. Basically, you can't make the conclusions that you have made from the data you've given us.

I don't know how to say this in more polite language, so I'll just say it: you're still full of bull****.

Anyway, I thought it was funny that you're using a textbook that one of my professors helped write

(Myers, David G. Psychology Seventh Edition in Modules)... I think I have it laying around here somewhere. Anyway, I'm glad that your sources add up. However, you've interpreted them very wrongly. I'll elaborate at a later date when I have more time; however, it's exam season.... :P

Originally posted by devonin

According to the Kinsey Scale posted above, we're looking at 11.6% of white males aged 20-35 and 7% of single females aged 20-35 reading as "Equally heterosexual and homosexual" I'm pretty sure that puts them into a pretty significant category.

Just at a brief glance: I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers. Kinsey did a lot to help the field of sexuality, but his statistics weren't exactly sound (think: gathering data from gay bars).

**Dark Ronin** · 12-10-2007, 11:43 AM

Re: Homosexuality.