Homosexuality.

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

Perky...if homosexuality is a recessive trait (And given the much smaller instance of homosexuality versus heterosexuality there's no reason to think it wouldn't be) there is nothing at all stopping it from being transmitted through heterosexual generations.

Further, a lot of the discussion here has had less to do with "genetics" so much as "Environmental conditions pre-natally" which while not a function of genetics, is still something beyond your control.

The discussion isn't so much "Choice vs Genetics" as it is "Conditions that are within your control vs conditions that aren't"

[perkeyone]

Re: Homosexuality.

Perky...if homosexuality is a recessive trait (And given the much smaller instance of homosexuality versus heterosexuality there's no reason to think it wouldn't be) there is nothing at all stopping it from being transmitted through heterosexual generations.

I don't think that is what I said.
What i meant was that i doubt the genetic explanation of homosexuality would allow it to spread as much as it (hypothetically) has.

Is it even possible for homosexuality to be genetic?
If you think about it...
In order to be gay you would have to inherit genes that make you gay from you parents.
The likelihood of a gay individual having children is slim.
Therefor homosexuality genes would not have a good chance of being passed on to the next generation of offspring.
I guess there is a possibility that homosexuality is influenced by a combination of genes and/or those genes are recessive.
But... I think that when hypothetical mutation(s) occurred to normal (hetero) genes and new (homo) genes were created, the homosexuality genes would not have had a good enough chance to be passed on and become widely distributed, especially not to the extent to which homosexuality currently is (distributed).

Further, a lot of the discussion here has had less to do with "genetics" so much as "Environmental conditions pre-natally" which while not a function of genetics, is still something beyond your control.

The discussion isn't so much "Choice vs Genetics" as it is "Conditions that are within your control vs conditions that aren't"

I fully understand what the discussion is about.
I am certain that genes were suggested to be a factor at least once in the thread so far. (not including my post or yours)
I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

[Dark Ronin]

Re: Homosexuality.

I may repeat something stated earlier in the thread, I only skimmed it. If so I'll shut up. I have done a great deal of research into the topic of homosexuality. My major is pre-med so I have to know a lot about how people behave. The information was forced on me, but maybe I can help clear something up.

Homosexuality is not something you can help. There is no way anyone can help it. Many people live out there lives trying to deny that they are gay. It’s a horrible existence. People are born either gay or strait, there’s nothing anyone can do to change it. No one really knows until they reach puberty. That’s when you know. It is a 100% black and white kind of thing. Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.

I did find it a little odd that while men react exclusively to either male or female stimuli, most women can react equally to either. So perhaps it is a little more of a choice for women. I am by no means saying all women can be homosexual, it’s still genetic. The study was based on stimuli from physically touching the person. Men only reacted to the sex they were attracted to, while women had at least somewhat of a reaction to both sexes. I don’t really understand the results; I just want to share the only part of it that really struck me as odd.

[atalkingcow]

Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is not something you can help. There is no way anyone can help it. Many people live out there lives trying to deny that they are gay. It’s a horrible existence. People are born either gay or strait, there’s nothing anyone can do to change it. No one really knows until they reach puberty. That’s when you know. It is a 100% black and white kind of thing. Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.

I can definitely prove you wrong on at least one of your points there.

Bisexuality is most definitely not a choice, for the people who really are, and aren't just saying it to be weird.

A hot naked woman and a hot naked man both ,quite frankly, turn me on.
I can't help it, I can't stop it, and I wouldn't want to anyway.

We can assume that it's possibly an effect of my environment growing up, we can assume its something genetic, we can even assume its the effect of a chemical imbalance in the womb. None of that changes the fact that it ISN'T a choice.

Of course, I'm not saying there aren't people out there who -say- they're G/L/B just to be different/cool. There definitely are.

But, there's white people who act black, through a concious (sp?) decision. Does that mean there are no Black people? Does that mean that every black person made a -choice- to be Black?
Of course not.

I'm gonna stop before I say something stupid, cuz I'm already in a really pissy mood.

Adios
Cow

[Rubin0]

Re: Homosexuality.

I don't think homosexuality is as black and white as people try to make it out to be. People aren't 100% anything. I think you can be genetically predisposed towards one sexual preference, but environmental factors play a crucial role as well. I don't believe I was born a lesbian. I wasn't born anything. Certain circumstances in my life (in addition to whatever hormones and chemicals were shot through my body in my mother's womb) guided me towards being attracted to other women. I have no scientific evidence to back that up, but how much scientific evidence do you need when you live it?

[bradrrek]

Re: Homosexuality.

Here is the input of a Psych major (not that that implies any credibility whatsoever):

I haven't seen the term genetic predisposition thrown around too much yet, and maybe it should be. I personally don't believe that there is a specific gene for homosexuality. Rather, certain combinations of genes predispose individuals to respond behaviorally, cognitively, and/or physiologically to environmental stimuli (of course, including prenatal chemicals) in ways that will result in homosexuality. Neither nature nor nurture by itself causes homosexuality. Rather, they continuously interact, resulting in who we are and who we will be.

I just want to add also that I wholeheartedly agree with the following argument:

Why would anybody inflict the the pain and hurt that tend to coincide with homosexuality on himself or herself?

Maybe I'm a little biased, but the argument makes a great deal of sense to me.

[justaguy]

Re: Homosexuality.

it's biological and environmental, like someone else mentioned in the thread earlier. for biological, you're born attracted to the same gender, and that's how it will be. like reach said, there are similarities between homosexual men and heterosexual women's brain chemistry. for environmental, you can obviously be influenced for your sexuality as you can by most everything else. while you may truly be heterosexual, if you're brought up in a homosexual environment you may only learn to love the same sex. i assume later in life you'll come to terms with your true sexuality. i believe these are the two sides of the coin for homosexuality. the only way a homosexual and "become" a heterosexual is if they are inherently heterosexual. trying to convert an inherently homosexual person to heterosexuality isn't going to happen.

[Dark Ronin]

Re: Homosexuality.

I can definitely prove you wrong on at least one of your points there.

Bisexuality is most definitely not a choice, for the people who really are, and aren't just saying it to be weird.

A hot naked woman and a hot naked man both ,quite frankly, turn me on.
I can't help it, I can't stop it, and I wouldn't want to anyway.

I never said its impossible to be bi only that there are no proven instances of it. And I certainly never called them weird. I personally am strait, but I do have friends who are gay and its really no big deal at all. Now if you are a girl then its not far fetched. Its nearly proven by the studies that have been done so far. But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books.

We can assume that it's possibly an effect of my environment growing up, we can assume its something genetic, we can even assume its the effect of a chemical imbalance in the womb. None of that changes the fact that it ISN'T a choice.

Which is something I said. It cannot be helped.

Of course, I'm not saying there aren't people out there who -say- they're G/L/B just to be different/cool. There definitely are.

True.

But, there's white people who act black, through a concious (sp?) decision. Does that mean there are no Black people? Does that mean that every black person made a -choice- to be Black?
Of course not.

Excellent analogy. Thats exactly how nearly all psychologists today see it. But I dont know anymore than they do. The truth is the information the scientific community gets is almost exclusively from volunteers now. I suppose it is entirely possible that there are a lot of bisexual people out there how just havent come forward. Of course its also possible that you are only one of very few exceptions. Every single rule has some exception somewhere.

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

Its nearly proven by the studies that have been done so far. But if your a guy, then someone may need to start rewritting psychology text books.

You have some horrific psychology books then. I mean, anecdotal evidence is fun and all, but I personally know a number of male bisexuals. I mean, I'm empathic enough to tell when people around me are experiencing genuine romantic attraction to other people, and I've seen plenty of men and women feel that way about their own gender and the opposite gender.

I'm very curious to see how you can possibly make a statement like "I can understand you being attracted to both sexes if you're a girl, but if you're a guy then OMG psychology is wrong" Who the hell has ever published something legitimate saying that bisexuality can only occur in women?

[atalkingcow]

Re: Homosexuality.

To clarify, I'm a guy.
Btw, thanks for complimenting my awesome-o analogy. ^_^

[Dark Ronin]

Re: Homosexuality.

You have some horrific psychology books then. I mean, anecdotal evidence is fun and all, but I personally know a number of male bisexuals. I mean, I'm empathic enough to tell when people around me are experiencing genuine romantic attraction to other people, and I've seen plenty of men and women feel that way about their own gender and the opposite gender.

I'm very curious to see how you can possibly make a statement like "I can understand you being attracted to both sexes if you're a girl, but if you're a guy then OMG psychology is wrong" Who the hell has ever published something legitimate saying that bisexuality can only occur in women?

I never claimed to understand any of it, I just took it strait from my text books. But you make a very good point. I took it as some sort of major difference in the two sexes. I assume its something hormonal, but assumptions haven’t done me much good lately. And it wasn’t an OMG reply, I'm just a little surprised that the prestigious authors of two separate psychology text books could be so sure about it, and so many average people who have little to know knowledge of psychology know for a fact it’s completely absurd. It’s just a little interesting to me. What are those guys getting paid for anyway?

[Chrissi]

Re: Homosexuality.

I may repeat something stated earlier in the thread, I only skimmed it. If so I'll shut up. I have done a great deal of research into the topic of homosexuality. My major is pre-med so I have to know a lot about how people behave. The information was forced on me, but maybe I can help clear something up.

Homosexuality is not something you can help. There is no way anyone can help it. Many people live out there lives trying to deny that they are gay. It’s a horrible existence. People are born either gay or strait, there’s nothing anyone can do to change it. No one really knows until they reach puberty. That’s when you know. It is a 100% black and white kind of thing. Everyone has heard of bisexuals, but the truth is that that is a choice. There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes.

I did find it a little odd that while men react exclusively to either male or female stimuli, most women can react equally to either. So perhaps it is a little more of a choice for women. I am by no means saying all women can be homosexual, it’s still genetic. The study was based on stimuli from physically touching the person. Men only reacted to the sex they were attracted to, while women had at least somewhat of a reaction to both sexes. I don’t really understand the results; I just want to share the only part of it that really struck me as odd.

May I kindly ask that you stop spewing complete and utter sexist bull**** and start actually critically thinking?

"There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes." What exactly are you trying to say? That there are proven instances of people being unable to control their feelings toward just one sex?

On what basis do you think that only women can be bisexual, and that all these women are making a choice?

I certainly didn't choose to be this way. And if I were a man I still wouldn't have chosen to be this way. It just happens. I see a girl and I like her. I see a guy and I like him. To me the matter is that people are sexy and gender is irrelevant to my attraction toward them. I like all people. And am capable of love toward all different types of people. I realize people have their preferences, but to me, to try to say I only like women or I only like men would be like trying to say that I only like white people or I only like asians or black people or something. It just doesn't work.

[Dark Ronin]

Re: Homosexuality.

May I kindly ask that you stop spewing complete and utter sexist bull**** and start actually critically thinking?

I don’t get why everyone is starting to hate me. I didn’t say anything sexist; I'm not "hating on gay people"; I don’t have a problem with anyone. I'm simply presenting the facts as they are in every text book I have studied. Unlike you people I am not "dissing" anyone because of who they are, and I’m not putting any ethical or moral values I have into it. Its pure straightforward, sometimes blunt information, from the world authorities on the workings of the human mind.

"There are no proven instances of anyone truly being unable to control their feelings about both sexes." What exactly are you trying to say? That there are proven instances of people being unable to control their feelings toward just one sex?

Yes most people are attracted to a single sex. To my knowledge everyone was, but I guess this is what they mean by the saying "You can’t learn everything from a book." I always understood CT as being purely scientific, facts required. Lately its just lets yell at the guy who doesn’t agree with my personal views. Give me solid facts, don’t just say I don’t like you because this is what I think. A single individual can be an exception. I'm an exception to a lot of stuff, that doesn’t make me "weird" or anything. Its just life. You may be an exception. Find some study and get back to me. I am looking into it though. Perhaps they have found something new. But the studies have been going on for at least 2 hundred years, and I'm pretty sure people are still people. Its not like people just started being gay, there have always been gay people. They were just persecuted by strait people. Its human nature to put other people down so you can feel good about yourself.

On what basis do you think that only women can be bisexual, and that all these women are making a choice?

It’s not only women. But my basis is 4 years of psychology and 3 different textbooks that all agree with each other. Yes it may be wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm completely against buying into what a professor or text book says without proof. I just want a solid intelligent debate. Its nothing personal.

I certainly didn't choose to be this way. And if I were a man I still wouldn't have chosen to be this way. It just happens. I see a girl and I like her. I see a guy and I like him. To me the matter is that people are sexy and gender is irrelevant to my attraction toward them. I like all people. And am capable of love toward all different types of people. I realize people have their preferences, but to me, to try to say I only like women or I only like men would be like trying to say that I only like white people or I only like Asians or black people or something. It just doesn't work.

Point taken. That makes two people to come forward in 24 hours. I am obviously wrong on my point that bisexuals don’t exist. I don’t have another class until next week, but my psychology teacher studied under Pavlov. She graduated number one in her class at the University of Tennessee, a class of over 3000 students. I'll tell you what you guys have told me, and see if she can come up with anything. If not, I'll concede.

[Corbin Wells]

Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is nothing more than the attraction to the same sex. If one has to study and asky why there is homosexuality, one should ask why there is heterosexuality.

When humans are born, all humans have nipples, this is because the body at an early age has not been designated with a sex yet because it's completely random. After a sex is chosen, the required parts are thus um...grown.

Sometimes testosterone doesn't develop as it should in a male and in result sometimes produces one with a high voice and feminine appeal (which is true for most but not all homosexuals) and vice versa for women supposed to be men and whatnot.

As far as the mind stuff goes, that can also be a factor because if you can think of something sexually appealing to you and get aroused then you have just stimulated yuorself mentally. Of course a small part of it is in the mind but for the most part, it's up to what your body wants. It could be a very blurry blend between mental and physical.
I go by what my sexual appetite prefers really. It's the only fair thing to do.

[Rubin0]

Re: Homosexuality.

I don’t get why everyone is starting to hate me. I didn’t say anything sexist; I'm not "hating on gay people"; I don’t have a problem with anyone. I'm simply presenting the facts as they are in every text book I have studied. Unlike you people I am not "dissing" anyone because of who they are, and I’m not putting any ethical or moral values I have into it. Its pure straightforward, sometimes blunt information, from the world authorities on the workings of the human mind.



Yes most people are attracted to a single sex. To my knowledge everyone was, but I guess this is what they mean by the saying "You can’t learn everything from a book." I always understood CT as being purely scientific, facts required. Lately its just lets yell at the guy who doesn’t agree with my personal views. Give me solid facts, don’t just say I don’t like you because this is what I think. A single individual can be an exception. I'm an exception to a lot of stuff, that doesn’t make me "weird" or anything. Its just life. You may be an exception. Find some study and get back to me. I am looking into it though. Perhaps they have found something new. But the studies have been going on for at least 2 hundred years, and I'm pretty sure people are still people. Its not like people just started being gay, there have always been gay people. They were just persecuted by strait people. Its human nature to put other people down so you can feel good about yourself.



It’s not only women. But my basis is 4 years of psychology and 3 different textbooks that all agree with each other. Yes it may be wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm completely against buying into what a professor or text book says without proof. I just want a solid intelligent debate. Its nothing personal.



Point taken. That makes two people to come forward in 24 hours. I am obviously wrong on my point that bisexuals don’t exist. I don’t have another class until next week, but my psychology teacher studied under Pavlov. She graduated number one in her class at the University of Tennessee, a class of over 3000 students. I'll tell you what you guys have told me, and see if she can come up with anything. If not, I'll concede.

I think she may have over reacted a little.