Homosexuality.

[N.T.M.]

Re: Homosexuality.

Do you have any evidence for that claim, or is that just your opinion? Because if you can't provide any evidence, then we have no reason to believe you. You blatantly say that "homosexuality is not a genetic disorder," but you offer absolutely nothing supporting that idea.

I believe the general consensus is that homosexuality is the result of many factors, genes being part, prenatal and post-natal environment, and things like that. Or so it seems from the thread so far.

Also, I expect this will soon be locked, as I'm sure this has already been discussed in the thread, and nothing particularly new was added as a result of this bump.

I've read some about it, but I can't recall enough information to really support it . Sorry.

Just speculating here, but if homosexual tendencies are primarily attributed to genes, then how can people be converted (as people have been)? I mean it's ingrained in their genetic makeup.

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

Primarily != Exclusively

There's no speculating how something can be primarily genetic but also a product of environment, and end up resulting as a product of your environment. It just follows from the basic premise.

[ckj846]

Re: Homosexuality.

Just a note, I read only the first page of responses so sorry if I'm repeating anything that has already been discussed.

I, myself, am a homosexual. I have many homosexual friends and I have actually been "studying" similarities and differences between myself and my gay friends. And something that I've noticed is that all of my gay friends have had some sort of family problem or a very passive fatherly figure (if one at all). I know this was certainly the case with my family, and even my cousin's family (who is a lesbian).

I do not believe we are born as homosexuals. But, I do not believe that we, as people, have control over the decision to be homosexual. We have no control over the environment that we are raised in, the people who interact with us, or the family that raised us.

This is a huge part of why many homosexuals are confused and a bit frustrated with people who are bashing their lifestyle, calling it unholy or blasphemous. We, as homosexuals, do not have a choice in the matter. I would bet that if you gave someone the option of being heterosexual, people would gladly change and become "normal." Who would choose to be homosexual? Who would choose to be looked down upon and unable to physically bear children and raise a family?

And sorry if I am sounding like I am speaking for the entire gay population. I don't mean to come across that way. This is my opinion based on my experiences and the experiences of many others that I have met.

O_o

[N.T.M.]

Re: Homosexuality.

Just a note, I read only the first page of responses so sorry if I'm repeating anything that has already been discussed.

I, myself, am a homosexual. I have many homosexual friends and I have actually been "studying" similarities and differences between myself and my gay friends. And something that I've noticed is that all of my gay friends have had some sort of family problem or a very passive fatherly figure (if one at all). I know this was certainly the case with my family, and even my cousin's family (who is a lesbian).

I do not believe we are born as homosexuals. But, I do not believe that we, as people, have control over the decision to be homosexual. We have no control over the environment that we are raised in, the people who interact with us, or the family that raised us.

This is a huge part of why many homosexuals are confused and a bit frustrated with people who are bashing their lifestyle, calling it unholy or blasphemous. We, as homosexuals, do not have a choice in the matter. I would bet that if you gave someone the option of being heterosexual, people would gladly change and become "normal." Who would choose to be homosexual? Who would choose to be looked down upon and unable to physically bear children and raise a family?

And sorry if I am sounding like I am speaking for the entire gay population. I don't mean to come across that way. This is my opinion based on my experiences and the experiences of many others that I have met.

O_o

I appreciate the insight, as I, myself, cannot relate. So seeing your view is beneficial for that purpose.

[L0NEvvolf]

Re: Homosexuality.

i hate being gay :'( i was raped as a kid and i think it influenced me as a kid

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

i hate being gay :'( i was raped as a kid and i think it influenced me as a kid

Locked until I convince the admin to give me the power to grant forum bans for this kind of idiotic nonsense.

Edit: Got a nice message on my profile wall in response to this:

y do u wanna ban me i was being serious i was raped as a kid and i think that influenced me to becoming how i am now im serious i wasnt playing around you wanna ban me for speaking on a issue i have had alot of trobble with and was speaking the truth fine i love this game so i dont know why you would want to ban me for being 100% honest

1/ Your post added nothing to the discussion at all. The latest trend in the thread has been an analysis of the degree to which homosexuality seems to be genetic versus environmental. Your post didn't address this at all except in the most superficial way.

2/ You're falling into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You're connecting a previous event in your life to your current state and blaming the one directly on the other, without showing any actual causal connection between the two.

3/ If you "became gay" because of an environmental stimulus, it seems unreasonable to me that you couldn't decide to do something about it, especially if you "hate" being gay. The only way it would be beyond your control would be if you were born that way, in which case, the rape didn't have anything to do with it.

4/ Whether you were or were not actually raped "I got raped and I think it turned me gay" is an incredibly loaded and problematic statement in general. It is indistinguishable from trolling and a small degree of flaming whether it is true or not, and there are -many- better ways you could have phrased it in general, especially on the internet, and ESPECIALLY in a critical thinking forum on the internet.

5/ "i hate being gay :'( i was raped as a kid and i think it influenced me as a kid" The horrific spelling and punctuation are almost enough on their own. Proper spelling, grammar and punctuation are mandatory for the forum in general, and especially so in CT

I'm unlocking the thread if just to give you a chance to respond to this in a meaningful and contributory way, without cluttering up my profile wall, and because even with all the above, if you were at least trying to be serious and contributory, I ought not to punish the rest of the discussion for it.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexuality.

The only way it would be beyond your control would be if you were born that way

Nonsense. There are any number of superficially apparent, irreversible environmentally caused human states or attributes.

Proper spelling, grammar and punctuation are mandatory for the forum in general, and especially so in CT

WHY!!? How is a focus on this anything other than a fallacious argument ad vernacular?

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

Nonsense. There are any number of superficially apparent, irreversible environmentally caused human states or attributes.

That's as may be, but I don't think that "Something happened to make me this way, but nothing else can happen to change it" is a very strong argument unless you -also- describe the ways in which that change is in fact somehow permanant and irreversable. Just saying so, doesn't make it so.

WHY!!? How is a focus on this anything other than a fallacious argument ad vernacular?

Because those are the rules of this forum as laid down by its administration, and whether individual users agree with it or not, they're the rules, and they need to be followed.

I'm sure Tasselfoot is perfectly happy to hear your objections to the 'spelling and grammar are mandatory' rule that has been applied to the entire forum.

[Bynary Fission]

Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality, by all accounts, is hard-wired into gay individuals. It isn't learned. While some creatures can be genetically changed (This was done with fruit flies to make them gay) to make them homosexual, humans don't 'learn' to be gay. You're either born gay or you aren't. Having gay parents doesn't make you gay (See http://www.colage.org/programs/2ndgen/faq.htm). Homosexuality has been looked upon negatively over the years until recently (In some areas it's still illegal, even punishable by death). But it's nothing to be ashamed of. I am not gay, I am a heterosexual. But being straight does not put me over a homosexual. While some people hate gays, especially conservative Christians, they are homophobic fools who probably exude holier-than-thou attitudes.

Even external factors don't change your sexual orientation. Being around gay individuals doesn't make you gay. I have had gay friends, never made me gay or even want to wonder what it is like to be gay. It is ok to question yourself, wonder who you are. Some self-proclaimed homosexuals may not actually be completely gay, if at all.

Some people want to undo their homosexuality, or 'cure' it. People can do things like 'pray the gay away' and attend special seminars to 'rid' you of your homosexuality. Some who are dedicated may actually do it. I cannot say for sure. But it is not a disease nor is it a sin. Homosexuality has existed for thousands of years (It was popular among the samurai most notably), and will continue to do so. Homosexuality is a hard-wired trait that some people are born with. I have never seen a documented case where people suddenly became gay or bisexual. There may be, but I can't say for sure. But to date, I've never seen such a thing.

~Bynary Fission

[gnr61]

Re: Homosexuality.

Homosexuality, by all accounts, is hard-wired into gay individuals. It isn't learned.

Prove it.

All of your argument seems to have no scientific basis, but rather reads as sort of preachy and generalizing. This discussion thus far has been mainly about the genetic and environmental potential causes for homosexuality in humans. To say that someone is either born gay or straight is a pretty bold claim to make, particularly based on personal experience alone. You say that you haven't encountered such a case so far in your life that may have been influenced to be gay as a result of environmental causes.

You are not born complete with a gender identity. This is formed by numerous developmental and environmental factors such as the way you are raised by your parents and interact with your peers. From your interactions your identity develops. You learn what it means to be a male or a female, and the way you are brought up greatly affects your gender identity and potentially your sexual orientation.

There are biological factors indeed, but the environmental causes outweigh them. I'm not saying homosexuality is a choice, but that it is originated from a number of factors, not simply biology.

[Bynary Fission]

Re: Homosexuality.

You are not born complete with a gender identity. This is formed by numerous developmental and environmental factors such as the way you are raised by your parents and interact with your peers. From your interactions your identity develops. You learn what it means to be a male or a female, and the way you are brought up greatly affects your gender identity and potentially your sexual orientation.

I'm starting to get sick of you, really. I don't see YOU proving that statement. You tell me I have to prove my statement, which contradicts yours. I don't see you listing any resources. I don't see you proving it. What you are doing is hypocritical, and that makes you look like an idiot.

My post is mainly an opinion, along with some facts thrown in. But, just as I expected, you only pay attention to the one part that I say without a source. Here, read these. All this supports that statement.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1689843,00.html

One poster in there lists a bunch of extra sources supporting my answer, as well as many others.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061208075247AAI0Do6&show=7

This post supports my fruit fly statement.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002340883_gayscience19m.html

Is that enough for you? I will back up any statement I make, because I study and read into what I post about. The previous discussion was an exception. But I still believe it, for my own reasons.

~Bynary Fission

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexuality.

You are not born complete with a gender identity.

1. Gender identity doesn't seem to have anything to do with sexual orientation
2. Gender identity is tied quite neatly to the quantity of SOM neurons in the BSTc, which is located within the limbic system. It would be beyond bizarre if social factors were responsible for that particular brain structure. The claim is so ridiculous in fact that it calls into question any other claim you might make.

[devonin]

Re: Homosexuality.

Eric: Don't troll
Bynary: Don't feed the trolls

[poulice]

Re: Homosexuality.

ok let start whit this, i'm gay.

For those thinking that it is a choice, i can assure you that it is not. I don't believe it was my environnement that made me gay because i got the same attention and the same environnement as my brother. A fact that seems to support this is a identical twin study that shows that if one twin is gay, the other will probably be too.

As for the whole thing about changing the sexuality of someone, it cannot be done. Some gay men who have claimed to change orientation by going to a shrink or a religious place say that they are happy but few are. In one point in mostly every gay persons life, there try to change there orientation, mostly when they first find out that they are gay.

And finaly the hereditary theory. I read on a website somewhere that in the time of homosapiens, that the gay people acted as guards for the others. They did not have kids like the others so they took care of everyones else's kids. It sounds weird but it makes sense. Somehow, we never lost the "homosexual gene".

I know this might seem bias to some becose i would be "defending myself" but those are all things i found on credible web sites.

And just for those wondering, i act just like you, the fact that someone is gay should not segregate them from the other people and only a very small percent of the gay population is a steriotype, i'm not btw.

i hope this clears up some stuff =D

[BigBoss37]

Re: Homosexuality.

Why is this being discussed on FFR?? I wonder if the thread starter thinks that the FFR population is really smart enough to understand why people are born homosexual...