Nocilol

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

how many people are harmed from being allowed to have sex after 18 when they aren't mature enough, and how many are harmed from being disallowed when they are mature enough?

Well, since I doubt anyone is advocating RAISING the legal age to above eighteen, I doubt anyone older than that are getting hurt, and I sincerely doubt there are many people under eighteen who have the rational and mature judgment required to subject themselves to porn at the request of someone older.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

and I sincerely doubt there are many people under eighteen who have the rational and mature judgment required to subject themselves to porn at the request of someone older.

Would you also therefore argue that there are "many" people under eighteen who also lack the rational and mature judgement to have sex? I'd say having sex with someone requires more rational and mature thought than posing nude for photos, or even being videoed masturbating both of which are thriving porn markets.

Not all porn needs to involve an older person having sex with a younger person, so I don't know that I could agree that "many" people (which implies if not a majority, a very large minority) under 18 somehow lack the mental capacities to make that decision.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

I made my post under the assumption that the porn in question was someone older videotaping two or more younger people having sex.

And while I do think many people under eighteen lack the mature judgment to have sex, I think it takes far less thought to do something in the privacy of your own bedroom than it does to perform that act for people around the world.

To me, it's a matter of not fully understanding the far-reaching implications of doing porn, and that doesn't matter if they are having hardcore sex or just posing nude for a picture.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

So it's a sort of a "What does this say about you as a person, to have people all over the world watch you engaged in sexual acts" kind of standpoint? That people don't realise the effect that such a thing could have on them viz the reactions of people around them if they produce something that sees widespread viewing?

[AOL_blows911]

Re: Lolicon

Just another point to toss out: What do all of you specificaly consider "Child porn"? The by-the-books definition of underage sex (as in anyone less than 18), or maybe when the people involved are technicaly "Kids", as in before they are teens (12 and under). Do you measure it by maturity? If so, do you count it by mental (whether or not they understand the implications and are smart about birth controle, if they both love eachother, etc.), or by physical maturity (as in, before puberty = child, and when puberty begins they are no longer a child).

I, personaly, define it by mental and physical maturity. If two 17 year olds have sex together, even though they could be less than a week from turning 18, I don't consider that child pornography.
1) Theyre practically adults, and they are definatly NOT children. They're underage, but it's almost ridiculous to call a 17 year old a child.
2) If they both are smart about it and love eachother, where's the harm? I mean sure, one could have an STD, but there are ways to get tested for that, and there are so many ways of birth controle that the chances of her getting pregnant (if they do it right, of course) are very low.

That's what I think, anyway. Just thought I'd throw that point out there, because determining if Lolicon should be illegal because it depics CP is directly tied to your definition of CP.

[ToshX]

Re: Lolicon

I think it's a little ridiculous to call an 18 year old an adult, but that's just me.

Regardless, I think more crimes are going to be committed in ways that REALLY harm people more(molestation, rape) if stuff like CP is banned. I mean yeah, it may encourage some people, but I think it could keep a lot more people doing it the legal way.

I remember Aperson said in another thread that when alcohol was outlawed, everyone still did it, it just caused people to commit more dangerous crimes to get it. It didn't really solve anything, and people finally realized that making it legal would solve as many of the problems as possible.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

and I sincerely doubt there are many people under eighteen who have the rational and mature judgment required to subject themselves to porn at the request of someone older.

What's the basis of this doubt?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Would you also therefore argue that there are "many" people under eighteen who also lack the rational and mature judgement to have sex?

"I don't know"

Not all porn needs to involve an older person having sex with a younger person, so I don't know that I could agree that "many" people (which implies if not a majority, a very large minority) under 18 somehow lack the mental capacities to make that decision.

How do you figure?

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

"I don't know"

Good to know, but I was asking Guido, who made the statement in the first place *grin*

How do you figure?

Well, once again, directed at Guido, from his comment that many people under 18 don't have the capacites to understand the consequences of "making porn at the request of someone older" which implied to me that he figured there was some "I'm older and more intelligent" style trickery and misleading information being presented to those under 18.

I was only pointing out that he seemed okay with the idea that two 16 year olds were capable of deciding to have sex, and that a 35 year old was capable of "tricking" a 16 year old into making porn, but that two 16 year olds were not capable of deciding, all on their own, to make porn.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

What's the basis of this doubt?

Personal experience with kids.

@devonin: If you want to make the argument to lower the legal age to sixteen, be my guest. I'll still argue against you for the reasons I've stated, but you'll have a much better ground to stand on.

But I'm certain that Tosh is talking about young children doing porn, like twelve year olds. That's all I've been considering this whole time. All of my points so far have been with young children in mind. By extension, all of that applies to sixteen year olds, too, but I'm not interested in arguing that with you.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[ToshX]

Re: Lolicon

I'm actually considering CP to be people of all ages under 18. Remember when Arch0wl recorded himself masturbating and he was like 16? Well yeah, I remember someone brought this up in another thread, but having that video means owning child porn, even if you know the person and they are legal in some places.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Lolicon

Tosh, you remind me of this guy:

So here's my take, put bluntly: I think it's worth it to have children raped to have the free communication of sexual material.

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

I'm actually considering CP to be people of all ages under 18. Remember when Arch0wl recorded himself masturbating and he was like 16? Well yeah, I remember someone brought this up in another thread, but having that video means owning child porn, even if you know the person and they are legal in some places.

By the same application of the law, if ones parents ever took a picture of you as an infant in the bathtub, or as a little kid running around without your diaper on, they are technically in possession of child porn.

There was actually a case not too long ago where a (i think she was 15? 16?) girl was charged with possession of child pornography for having nude photos of -herself-

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Personal experience with kids.

Your experience is limited though. Even if you worked in a field that involved constant interaction with children you still wouldn't know everything about them. There's too much variance between individuals for you to make blanket statements based on a few random small samples.

[sgkoneko]

Re: Lolicon

Should it be legal/illegal? Is it pedophilia? Is there anything inherently wrong with it? I'm fairly neutral on the subject but am curious to hear what everyone else thinks on the matter.


If you are unfamiliar with what it is... here is a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon

Well anyone who wants to have sex with a drawing is pretty messed up to begin with.

Now on the subject of pedofilia. Well, if they are under the age of consent it shouldn't be done. Some people naturally have a really disturbing attraction to children, but they can't help it. Laws help make sure they keep away, so not much else can be done on the subject.