Nocilol

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Oh believe me, I recognize the difficulty. I wasn't born with my current mindest, you know. Actually I'm sure most commentators would class me as having a disposition of rather poor origin in this regard, if they knew the truth about me.

Anyways, Nietzsche is probably rolling over in his grave right now. He would undoubtedly class me as more dead than alive because of this mindset of mine. But it's not that I don't believe in the use of emotion in determining the backdrop of a morality, just that I think your emotions should end where another person begins; well, after a fashion. A jungle may be a fine representation of life in all it's splendid chaos and violence, but I'd rather live in a garden and have my plants trimmed occasionally to prevent certain unpleasentness. And a plant that can trim itself! What a marvolous thing that is.

[Nezeru]

Re: Lolicon

Oh, there are quite a few things I find disgusting that are, nevertheless, morally just fine by me. My particular objection with lolicon that depicts sex is that the artist (or the viewer) enjoys (or feels like depicting) something that I (and most people, at least people I know) find very, very wrong. I misspoke when I said that I found it morally objectionable BECAUSE it is disgusting.

[Cavernio]

Re: Lolicon

The only thing you added in your reiteration Nezeru, is that most people you know also find it wrong, (which leads into the cultural position about where morality comes from which has hardly been touched in my glance over of this thread.) No, not everything disgusting is wrong, however you've still not said WHY it's wrong, and still the only thing you've given to say that it's wrong is that it's disgusting.
Nor is the opposite of the logic argument set. It is not clear that everything that is wrong will be disgusting. Embezzlement of corporate funds is also something wrong which can harm thousands, however, do you get that same feeling of disgust from it? I would call my feelings towards that anger and outrage, but not disgust, although this could just be me.

The 'it just feels wrong' argument is the same argument that people have against homosexuality, and I think most people on this forum are alright with that. The major difference between this and the child porn argument (not just lolicon) is that there's no consensus with children. It could also be argued that more people think and feel that anything sexual with children is wrong, however, it's a weak argument in that people can change their minds and opinions. As an example, I'm pretty sure that now compared to 20 years ago, there's a lot more people who're ok with homosexuality.

Let's pretend we live in a culture where having sex with children is a norm. Along with this particular aspect of the society, discussion of sex is wide open for all ages so kids'll know about sex from a very, very young age. Also, when it's hot out, people of all ages walk around naked...sexual areas aren't supposed to be hidden. If you were to grow up in this culture, would you still say child porn's wrong? I don't think you would. There wouldn't be anything consensual about it, but besides physical harm of the child during acts of sex, (another point to raise), there'd be little reason for the child to not be alright with it. As I said before, I think the main harm of cp is that it mentally and emotionally hurts the child, but in such a culture, the child would not get emotionally hurt. They might even lord it over other kids when they get more sexual attention just like they do with any attention from adults.

Now, a good counter-argument to this example is that the scenario I just made is NOT the case, and would likely never BE the case anywhere, and this is an indication that it is not possible for most people to not have the 'wrong' feeling of sexuality with kids. The only thing I can think of to say to that is, from what I hear of ancient greek culture, young male boys were the fashionable/common taste for high-class men to engage in sex with, but this in no way says the boys were alright with it. In fact, it seems to reek of
people in power being able to do whatever the hell they want to do.

Ah, so much more to say, and I'm not even really discussing lolicon more as cp!

What about fake depictions of rape? Are those, generally, legal? I think they are. Do you think they're morally alright? For those of you who aren't turned on by lolicon, are you turned on by that? Is your stance different for both of these things, or is it the same?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Now, a good counter-argument to this example is that the scenario I just made is NOT the case, and would likely never BE the case anywhere

Actually, there are a number of primitive cultures with, if not identical, at least very similar thoughts and feelings on child sexuality.

The only thing I can think of to say to that is, from what I hear of ancient greek culture, young male boys were the fashionable/common taste for high-class men to engage in sex with, but this in no way says the boys were alright with it. In fact, it seems to reek of
people in power being able to do whatever the hell they want to do.

I think this might be a false assessment of ancient greece.

What about fake depictions of rape? Are those, generally, legal?

Yes.

Do you think they're morally alright?

Yes. Tolerable, anyways.

Is your stance different for both of these things, or is it the same?

Much the same.

[Cavernio]

Re: Lolicon

Yeah, the only assessment I'm basing on ancient greece is from a CBC radio program that I only listened to half of

Name some of those cultures with those beliefs I listed.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Name some of those cultures with those beliefs I listed.

I can't name any off the top of my head. Give me a little bit to dig through some old books of mine.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Lolicon

Here's what I think.

If someone does something that affects no other people in any way and does not physically endanger themselves, it should be legal, period, no matter what the hell it is. I don't care if you think it's "morally repugnant". Morals, as far as I'm concerned, are only relevant when other people are involved. Trying to dictate legally what someone else's entirely personal morals should be is, in my opinion, 100% wrong and itself more morally repugnant than anything said person could be doing with themselves, regardless of what they're actually doing. It is NOT up to you or anyone what someone does with themselves if it's not affecting anyone else.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the only possible argument against the legality of loli is that it might affect other people. However, this is such a vague, indirect connection (person looking at loli *might* be more disposed toward CP, and therefore *might* take it upon themselves to get real CP, which minorly helps promote CP, which *probably* negatively affects the child/children being portrayed) that I don't think it can honestly be used as the basis for any argument against it unless there is evidence of a very strong link between looking at loli and buying CP, which I highly doubt there is.

So yeah, I see no reason whatsoever why loli shouldn't be completely legal.

[ToshX]

Re: Lolicon

Doing otherwise is, for most people, a lot more difficult than you seem to give credit for. being in genuine moral support of something you personally find disgusting is not an easy stance for most people to take.

He's only being "fair" in his decision. There are tons of things I don't like, such as furry porn, etc. However, I don't consider it morally wrong at all, and it shocks me that some people do.

Personally, I don't really care if people watch it, as long as no law is passed that forces me to watch it. I don't even mind seeing it and ignoring it, even though I don't like it.

I mean really, you don't have to like something to consider it morally fine.

[Cavernio]

Re: Lolicon

I just realized I never really did say whether I think lolicon is alright. I agree 100% with Shash.

For anyone who thinks loli is wrong, yet thinks that depictions of rape is alright, I don't understand you, because I agree with Shash and what Kilroy have said, that you can't say what someone else does purely in their mind is wrong. And I use rape, in general, as a comparison because I see the moral issue with rape and cp is that both are not consensual.
I mean, you're allowed to have an opinion on what's disgusting, but you definitely shouldn't base laws on it. Furthermore, keep in mind that people really have very little control over what turns them on; it's not a conscious decision to become aroused by loli or rape or breasts.

As to Nezeru's most recent comment, that's all fine and dandy, but you really have no way of knowing whether someone who created something meant it for pleasure or not, or if someone gets pleasure from looking at it, if they choose to not say anything about it. In terms of legality, it'd be almost impossible to control, even aside that I think it's alright to become aroused by them anyways. When I look at the issue from a step back even, it seems sooooo backwards to say that getting even MORE pleasure from looking at art than 'oh, that's pretty', is wrong. Art is meant to be enjoyed!

Maybe it's just me, but inseparable to ALL sex is that it's naughty. That's part of the turn on, it's like, THE THING about sex that makes it sex. People just have different limits with what's a turn-on, disgusting, or 'meh'.

Also, I'm sure some people out there would be scandalized that a 12 year old is taking part in the conversation; they're too young to be hearing about this (sarcasm)

Aside: I'm sorry Kilroy, but I've never read any Neitzsche, although I suspect I'd enjoy it, so if I've supported/not supported him, it's not on purpose. I'm terribly unread in anything involving political science or philosophy; I should rectify that, I know.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

Agreed with Shash 1000%

1. Only post if you can contribute something to the topic/debate. This means no more: "What <insert name> Said" , or "I agree/disagree".

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Magic_V2]

Re: Lolicon

I'm pretty sure I was asked an opinion on the subject. Shash shares my opinion therefore he saved me time by typing it first.

I agree with Shash's post in that lolicon has no direct connection to the harming of anyone, and what you do behind closed doors is your choice.

Edit: Posting what you just did in here instead of pm'ing me didn't contribute to the topic either.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

I'm pretty sure I was asked an opinion on the subject. Shash shares my opinion therefore he saved me time by typing it first.

4. Since this is a Critical Thinking Forum use evidence to back up your statement

You are never just asked your opinion in CT.

Edit: Posting what you just did in here instead of pm'ing me didn't contribute to the topic either.

Forgive me for doing my job. You'll notice that I posted the same thing in another thread. Perhaps you aren't the only one who needed to be reminded, hmm?

Get back on topic.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[l Endorphin l]

Re: Lolicon

Honestly, just like everything else in the world, If its in the wrong hands, it can be bad.

Saying its horrible in all hands would be stereotyping the whole human race, saying that everyone thinks the same.
I don't mind seeing it in the hands of someone like Tosh, or Shash or others in here. That doesn't mean it should be completely Legal.
Just like all pornography there is an 18 or older law (That no one pays attention to).

But I agree with the fact that Sexual offenders should be watched more carefully. Like Dwight Whorley. Now he just looks like a rapist.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Aside: I'm sorry Kilroy, but I've never read any Neitzsche, although I suspect I'd enjoy it, so if I've supported/not supported him, it's not on purpose. I'm terribly unread in anything involving political science or philosophy; I should rectify that, I know.

I was actually just thinking out loud. The comparison was between myself and Nietzsche, not you and Nietzsche.

[purplepopcorn]

Re: Lolicon

What I believe some people aren't getting is the difference between causation and correlation.

Pertaining to this argument, causation states that someone that enjoys loli will become more and more attracted and turned on by CP, hence the heavy correlation between the two.

Correlation means that if someone is already attracted to CP, they will also find loli to be just as appealing.

As Kilga said, there could also be the opposite of causation occurring, where people are less and less turned on by CP as they continue to... enjoy loli.

I'm kind of in a hurry, and I don't have time to proofread or anything, but that's my two cents.

PS. yes I do find loli attractive, it is primal instinct for humans to be attracted to the youngest possible childbearers (to a certain extent), as they are most likely to bring up successful children. Disprove me if I'm wrong, I'm just going off of what I heard from a few places.