Nocilol

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

Your experience is limited though. Even if you worked in a field that involved constant interaction with children you still wouldn't know everything about them. There's too much variance between individuals for you to make blanket statements based on a few random small samples.

You asked for my justification, and that's it. As far as I'm concerned, I've got plenty of experience on which to found my beliefs. Recall that I'm not a congressman.

(For what it's worth, I have had lots of work experience with kids of all ages. I understand that that doesn't change your point at all; it's just FYI.)

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Maid]

Re: Lolicon

Well anyone who wants to have sex with a drawing is pretty messed up to begin with.

Who said they do? People get off/aroused to drawings, not necessarily have sex with them(not like they could /rolls eyes). I'd bet you'd get aroused by at least one example of so called drawing, simple physical response, doesn't matter if it is a photo of real being or a drawing as long as it fits your body's image of what would get you off. Not it is entirely up to you to follow up or not, but that would be simple programming received from all so correct sheep mentality, and could always be disputed someplace else.

So I guess that would also make you pretty messed up.

Welcome to our messed up* world. Guess what! it's been that way all along.

[OnixRose]

Re: Lolicon

Who said they do? People get off/aroused to drawings, not necessarily have sex with them(not like they could /rolls eyes). I'd bet you'd get aroused by at least one example of so called drawing, simple physical response, doesn't matter if it is a photo of real being or a drawing as long as it fits your body's image of what would get you off. Not it is entirely up to you to follow up or not, but that would be simple programming received from all so correct sheep mentality, and could always be disputed someplace else.

So I guess that would also make you pretty messed up.

Welcome to our messed up* world. Guess what! it's been that way all along.

great point.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Lolicon

GREAT CONTRIBUTION!

[Shashakiro]

Re: Lolicon

I'm totally with Guido on real CP (for <16, anyway). Kids are just not mature enough to forsee the long-term consequences of CP when they're that young. I know I was absolutely terrible at seeing long-term consequences of anything before 16, and I've always considered myself to be fairly mature for my age, dating back to when I was 13. Engaging any kind of CP can be a life-ruining choice, and no child should ever legally be able to make a life-runing choice. Period.

Oh, and to address one of devonin's points: To my knowledge, I have never seen real CP. By "to my knowledge", I mean that maybe I've seen 16-17, but if I did I had no idea they were that age.

Lastly: A picture of a naked 3-year old in a bathtub is not pornography at all. A picture is only pornographic if it's somehow sexual, which I don't think anyone can argue that a 3-year old in a bathtub is.

[ToshX]

Re: Lolicon

By the same application of the law, if ones parents ever took a picture of you as an infant in the bathtub, or as a little kid running around without your diaper on, they are technically in possession of child porn.

There was actually a case not too long ago where a (i think she was 15? 16?) girl was charged with possession of child pornography for having nude photos of -herself-

Well yeah, I'm not saying it has to be like, you know, all over websites and stuff. Do I think it'd help STOP people from raping kids and stuff? Well, in many cases, yes, and I think even in the majority of cases.

I'm totally with Guido on real CP (for <16, anyway).

Yeah, I'm including everyone up through 17 to be considered kids.

As for what Kilga quoted, I'm pretty much saying the opposite of the first part of the statement in that sentence.

As for Shash, I see why some people could consider it a "life ruining experience", but I think it's no more of one than if someone were to do it when they were, say, 18. Well yeah, obviously 18 year olds are going to make better decisions, though, so maybe I should change my argument to saying they should be allowed to make it with parental consent. Now, you may ask, "who the hell would allow their child..." etc. Well, surprisingly, there are a considerable number who would. I mean yeah, it'd be a minority of people, but still a considerable amount.

Parents already greatly change the lives of their children everyday. If a parent decides it will not damage the child in a considerable way, I see no problem with it.

I mean yeah, you wouldn't've seen my parents allowing that and I wouldn't allow it for my kids, but then again, it's far from likely that I'll ever engage in(as in actually help in the creation of) any kind of porn anytime in my life. Not everyone thinks the same way as I do, though.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

maybe I should change my argument to saying they should be allowed to make it with parental consent. Now, you may ask, "who the hell would allow their child..." etc. Well, surprisingly, there are a considerable number who would. I mean yeah, it'd be a minority of people, but still a considerable amount.

Yeah, and most of those parents are the ones RAPING THEIR CHILDREN.

I would bet that MOST of the child porn out there is parent and kid. These parents already convince their child to have sex with them on a regular basis. You're telling me that you WANT them to have a LEGAL way to do this?! That's insane!

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[ToshX]

Re: Lolicon

You do have a point. In that case, I'd just say lowering the legal age would be a better option. I mean if people consider an 18 year old an adult, they might as well consider a 16 year old an adult.

"Oh, but there are some stupid 16 year olds." Well there are some stupid 18 year olds as well.

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

But I can slippery slope you down to having no age limit whatsoever.

What is the difference between the day before you turn 16 and the day you turn 16? Nothing. So why not make it 15? What's the difference between the day before you turn 15 and the day you turn 15? More nothing.

Age limits are arbitrary because they have to be. They will always allow some people access to something that aren't ready, and will always deny some people access to something that are ready. It is the problem inherent in legislating anything for anyone.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Lolicon

If a parent consents to have his/her child engage in CP, I would call that pure child abuse with no hesitation or exception whatsoever, ESPECIALLY if the parent was making a monetary profit.

Also, from my personal experience, I think 16 would be a much better cutoff than 18, which is why I included that little disclaimer. I'm 18 now and don't really feel like I've grown all that much in the past two years. 14 to 16 was a MUCH bigger growth period for me maturity-wise. I also don't feel like the 16-year olds I deal with are particularly immature compared to me. Maybe I've just dealt with more mature people in general, but that's just my personal experience.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Lolicon

I say give yourself a couple more years, Shash. I didn't realize the huge maturity gap from 16 to 18 until I was 19 or 20. Then, though, it was strikingly clear.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Lolicon

What, the age of consent thing again? It's not perfect, sure, but it's the least of all evils. I challenge anyone who doesn't like AoC to find a better system (bear in mind you have to factor in feasibility and cost as well as accuracy of results).

In addition, 18 isn't an arbitrary number, it's an age determined to be highly signifigant by psychologists in regard to the maturation process, and just because any given person in this thread may be an exception certainly doesn't mean that such is the case for everyone.

[devonin]

Re: Lolicon

but it somehow implies that the day you change from 17 to 18, you undergo some magical and sudden transformation which is entirely false. It could just as logically have been 17 or 19 as 18. And once you cede that it could just have easily have been 17 as 18, you can start in on how it could just as easily be 16 as 17.

"By 18" as a psychological standard inherantly allows for -most- people to be "that mature" before 18. 18 is picked because, in their opinion, by that point a sufficiently large majority of people will have reached that stage to make it a useful arbitrary value. That's all. There's nothing more magical or special about the age.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Lolicon

Because of that inherent level of imperfection though it's important to remember there is always room for improvement, as well as what the imperfection actually implies.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Lolicon

but it somehow implies that the day you change from 17 to 18, you undergo some magical and sudden transformation which is entirely false. It could just as logically have been 17 or 19 as 18. And once you cede that it could just have easily have been 17 as 18, you can start in on how it could just as easily be 16 as 17.

If you want to pointless debate semantics, I could point out there there's no day where you change from 17 to 18, because a day after your 17th birthday you're not just 17 anymore.

But that would be stupid and unnecessary!

it's important to remember there is always room for improvement

So find it.