Need some opinions

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

Yeah, definitely. Guidelines need to be set in stone after some deliberation about which decision is the right one, so situations like this don't happen anymore.

[justin_ator]

Re: Need some opinions

If he distributes the original SM files to his songs do they get taken down anyway?

just being curious

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

If he distributes the original SM files to his songs do they get taken down anyway?

just being curious

Not sure, but because it's ported, it would probably be more beneficial to punish him for releasing the files rather than punishing others who actually enjoy the files. SM isn't FFR and people struggle with the difference all of the time.

[foxfire667]

Re: Need some opinions

Yeah, definitely. Guidelines need to be set in stone after some deliberation about which decision is the right one, so situations like this don't happen anymore.

This would be the best course of action. We can go back and forth with out respective outlooks about the right of both musicians and stepfile authors, but either way, this still doesn't mean that FFR should risk being on the wrong side of legality if we don't have to. Staff should deliberate and post, for everyone to easily access, a set of rules regarding their rights as a musician or a step artist when they give FFR permission for these things to be used in game.

What I would recommend (and hopefully this would close this gray area of files that were sent into FFR before the rules are clearly posted) is that there is some sort of retroactive clause for all files in game, and for authors to appeal if they don't want their files to fall under the "new" terms. You could give an appeal grace period to notify an administrator about this for a couple weeks or something, and then after that every file will be considered retroactively under the "new" policy aside from ones authors appealed for (for whatever reason). I know you say that this is a different medium and that you feel FFR would be legally protected, but unless you can pull up some laws that can prove this without a shadow of a doubt I would much rather be on the safe side of things here.

Example terms for stepfile authors.

By submitting a stepped file (.sm or .dwi) to Flash Flash Revolution ([email protected]), you hereby agree to all of the following terms and conditions listed henceforth in this posting. You cannot submit to Flash Flash Revolution under any circumstances if you do not agree to the terms and conditions listed; a submission to this website means you fully comply with the following:

1) Rights transfer of any and all submissions for stepped materials to FFR
- Submitting stepped material to Flash Flash Revolution grants FFR the full and irrevocable explicit permission to use this material for the purpose of hosting said material for FFR the game.
- The submission of your file under these conditions shall be absolute under the following conditions held by the FFR staff:
a) The stepped material is unchanged from it's original form structure wise (excluding the limitations of the Flash Flash Revolution conversion software) unless explicit permission from the step author is given.
b) The stepped material is indefinitely and visibly credited to the user who stepped the material.
c) The stepped material has the full consent of the music artist to be in game. If the music artist revokes permission at any time, it will void this agreement and full rights of the step file will return to the user.
d) The FFR staff do not voluntarily relinquish the rights to a given step file.
- A removal of a file by the sole discretion of the FFR staff (excluding cases of the revoking of permission from a music artist) will still be granted full permission to be used at a later time on FFR, so long as it's re-release is solely a file playable on the FFR engine(s).

2) Special requests and removals.
- A step artist may send a message to Flash Flash Revolution staff to change or remove a file in the event of an extraordinary circumstance. This message shall be thoroughly reviewed by the staff, and a quick response given after the staff have decided whether the circumstances are worthy of the action requested by a step artist. The staff reserves the full right to deny, accept, or try to compromise with any and all requests given by a step author.
- If by a staff decision an alteration or removal of a file is accepted as appropriate, this action will be taken, but the FFR staff has the right to change their decision at any time. This is unless FFR staff decide under special circumstances to relinquish their rights to a stepped file, in which case they will lose decisive power to use the file how they see fit.

3) Total control given to Flash Flash Revolution
- If a step author wishes to relinquish themselves of all remaining rights, they may request for the removal of their credit in creating the stepped file. Discredited files on Flash Flash Revolution should be denoted as such, and shall be treated as if FFR created them completely unaided.
- If a step author no longer wishes to no longer be associated with a file for whatever reason, they can relinquish their rights to be completely discredited of their work to FFR. This process is irreversible, and your rights will not be restored under any circumstance.

4) Retroactive nature for all files submitted before these terms and conditions were in effect
- All files that were submitted before these set of terms and conditions were set and available for all to adhere to will be retroactively moved to this new policy after a grace period of 30 days.
- During this grace period, step authors may appeal to have certain or all files to not be placed under these new set of terms, and they will be permanently kept under the old policy.
- Step authors may allow for their files to be placed under this new policy after they filed for an appeal at any time, but they cannot be removed from the new policy a second time.
- Step authors with files filed under this appeal still must adhere to these terms and conditions for any and all future submissions to Flash Flash Revolution.
- From the next open batch of this post, any and all submissions are considered to agree to these terms and conditions. If you submitted a file without full understanding of these terms and conditions, and if and only if the judging process has not begun, you can immediately notify FFR staff in charge of the FFR batch to remove your file from the reviewing queue. If judging has begun, you cannot appeal for your file to be removed.

Yup, I wrote all that...

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

There's no risk of legality issues, and it can be proven through a short assessment of what exactly happens when gathering the means for making a simfile.

In terms of licensing, music gathered for FFR is typically explicit permission from the artist (or label) under these parameters, or implicit permissions that automatically give permissions (classic music due to copyright expiration, Creative Commons licenses, etc).

Here's how this would work:

- an artist gives permission to FFR to use for their game (blanket, or not), or has a license on their audio that would imply that it is safe for FFR. In one case, you have explicit permission -- in the other, you have implicit permission. Anything that doesn't fall in this scenario would not be considered for inclusion.

- content made on StepMania is generally for use for others using StepMania, which is a free game that makes no profit, and allows for derivatives that can in fact make profit (see: Pulsen, In The Groove, PIU Pro, etc), and content made through SM can be used on SM or those derivatives safely because SM is and will continue to be open-source. Because StepMania is open-source, the files it uses to make the game function are also open-source and have no licensing attributions behind them. Therefore, SM and SSC files (on their own) have no direct licensing either. Therefore, anyone has permission to create a .sm/.ssc file at anytime without risk, either through SM, or some other means. EDIT: Because Dance With Intensity was an abandoned project and SM supports the saving of .dwi files in older versions, it is also probably correct to assume that .dwi files are an entity of SM that can be considered open-source as well, because if SM works with it, then the source to make it work a certain way probably can be modified as well.

- a simfile artist uses DDreamStudio/SM to create a .sm file and voluntarily submits it to FFR for judgment and inclusion into the game. Because SM/SSC files have no direct licensing on their own, the closest you can get to a license/permission is through the simfile artist that created the content for StepMania, because they have rights to the content within it. At this point, if they submit it to FFR for inclusion, they are sending it to a completely different platform. StepMania itself does not have any rules against distributing content.

- once the file is submitted, it gets converted to a format playable by FFR. FFR operates on a completely different platform than SM. In order for it to work properly, it needs to be ported from a 60-FPS/ms-based timing to a 30-FPS/frame-based timing. Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

In any circumstance, because FFR is free/non-profit and everything associated with it is legally free/licensed, there aren't any legal issues that can possibly be resolved. It all comes down to the question of whether or not it's worthwhile to remove content, and considering it comes at the cost of losing 22 simfiles, I'm pretty sure that staff would be against it. Licensing issues are non-existent and everything is done voluntarily, and unless there is an extreme circumstance where removal is an absolute necessity, files should just be left alone.

[SKG_Scintill]

Re: Need some opinions

I've only read the first two pages, then it got tl;dr.
I only wanted to know WHY he/she wants his/her files removed? It wasn't explained in the OP, nor in he succeeding two pages.

--- Unrelated to the above ---

The argument "it'll affect everyone's rank if it gets removed" is kind of derogatory. If this site has come to the point that files aren't appreciated for how they're made, but only for one's ranking on given file, it's getting out of hand.
Competitive spirit is fine and all, but keep it real.

As an example, I despise my Op.10 No.9 file.
On the one hand, people say they enjoy playing the file, so I'm fine with it being in game.
On the other hand, if people are only saying that because they have a good rank on it compared to other people, I'd want it removed from the game.
With the latter: the stepartist doesn't feel rewarded for his efforts, rather blamed.

Wow, it's easy to go tl;dr on this topic. I'm such a hypocrite

[foxfire667]

Re: Need some opinions

- a simfile artist uses DDreamStudio/SM to create a .sm file and voluntarily submits it to FFR for judgment and inclusion into the game. Because SM/SSC files have no direct licensing on their own, the closest you can get to a license/permission is through the simfile artist that created the content for StepMania, because they have rights to the content within it. At this point, if they submit it to FFR for inclusion, they are sending it to a completely different platform. StepMania itself does not have any rules against distributing content.
- once the file is submitted, it gets converted to a format playable by FFR. FFR operates on a completely different platform than SM. In order for it to work properly, it needs to be ported from a 60-FPS/ms-based timing to a 30-FPS/frame-based timing. Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

Obviously StepMania allows for the creation and distribution of stepped files, this makes perfect sense. The step author doesn't own the .sm / .dwi / .ssc files, but rather the content within them as a creative work due to current copyright laws. Although what I don't understand is why you feel that just because the stepped file was converted to the FFR engine, this would somehow completely revoke any rights the step author would have to the file itself.

Although FFR and StepMania are two different things, an FFR file converted from StepMania doesn't fall under some sort of free use doctrine, nor does it grant FFR a pass from giving the rights of the stepped content to the original authors without some sort of consent before hand. A converted file is something that resembles the created work as closely as possible, where the only differences are the limitations of the FFR conversion software. It is similar to that of copying a creative work, and moving it somewhere else, sort of like a port from one thing to another. For example, if I were the owner of a video game, and I gave a group of people the sole permission to port my game from a platform (like platform x) to platform y, but I decided for whatever reason to revoke my permission down the road, are you saying that because it was ported from one platform to another, that I no longer have the rights to my video game? Of course something like this would be highly unorthodox, but I'm just trying to show you where I'm coming from here.

The content of the stepped material is essentially unchanged from it's original form (aside from using commands from an swf instead of reading from a SM file). As you said yourself, the step author owns the creative content inside the file (not the sm / dwi / ssc itself) so all the conversion would really mean is that the fashion in which the arrows flow would be owned by the step author, but not the swf itself. This is still intellectual property, and I feel could be legally considered as infringement if permission was revoked and FFR staff refuses to comply. I mean, if the music was compiled into an swf that made it somehow impossible to convert back to it's original format, would that suddenly mean you would believe that the musician no longer holds the rights to the music any longer if they try ro revoke their permissions?

EDIT:

I only wanted to know WHY he/she wants his/her files removed? It wasn't explained in the OP, nor in he succeeding two pages.

This is the reasoning:

The exact reasoning that was given to me by the person is "I don't want to be associated with these files, they're bad and people hate them." Claiming that people are still saying bad things to him about his files when he's not even here anymore and hasn't had anything new in game since '09

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

Scintill: ranks are not the only reason why this is bad, but it certainly is a reason. Assuming that people don't care about the files for what they are is really ridiculous.

[SKG_Scintill]

Re: Need some opinions

It was an assumption, I wasn't expecting it to be true. Though, the person in question might feel that way.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Re: Need some opinions

how could i miss this thread.

[Nullifidian]

Re: Need some opinions

Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

This is an assumption, and that's not how things work. If you do not explicitly mention that the content becomes property of FFR once it's submitted/released and the submitter agreed to it, you have no ground to stand on. Legally you can't act on an assumptions, because that causes confusion. This is why contracts and agreements are made. You don't forfeit any rights unless explicitly mentioned and agreed to.

Now, again, I remember reading some rules about submitting content to FFR but unless this is dug up, the step artist is in their full right to remove any files at their wish regardless of any other opinions.

[Zageron]

Re: Need some opinions

Except for the fact that we're talking about a completely un-monetary based system, built with no copyright in mind. By submitting the file, FFR was not being 'granted' permission to use it. More like FFR waits for file submissions so that files are more original, step artists want their files to be on FFR so they make them for FFR.

If FFR was making money off of files, this would be an entirely different story, but it's not. (Which is why the previous rule regarding forfeit of rites existed.)

This isn't a 'breach of legal' situation. At all. There are no legal grounds here.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Re: Need some opinions

iirc it actually used to be in the rules and i cant seem to find it but i know it was there and tass mentioned it on several occasions as well. this isnt like it would be hard to fix though. just add it to the rules in the queue batch discussion thread and there will no longer be any question.

[Crazyjayde]

Re: Need some opinions

Now, again, I remember reading some rules about submitting content to FFR but unless this is dug up, the step artist is in their full right to remove any files at their wish regardless of any other opinions.

Then again, all content prior the this date, and the date of a future rights transfer agreement will be eligible to be removed, which is the entirety of the site. I agree we could remove the mentioned stepartist content for this case if he insists, but I believe it always have been implied that when you submit files to the site, you agree on such terms.

But seriously, it's going to be hard to agree on this if we can't find proper info in our logs. If psychoangel is reading this, I'd like to know what's the update on the discussion, as he agreed to anything or is he maintaining his position? If his position still doesn't sway, I support removing the content he asked for, but not the entirety. I mean, he's basically asking for us to improve his files.

[trumaestro]

Re: Need some opinions

- once the file is submitted, it gets converted to a format playable by FFR. FFR operates on a completely different platform than SM. In order for it to work properly, it needs to be ported from a 60-FPS/ms-based timing to a 30-FPS/frame-based timing. Because FFR has no intentions on allowing files to be released/copied/etc., once a file is converted, a user should have no rights to that particular content, as it belongs to FFR. You forfeit the right to it explicitly belonging to you when you voluntarily submit it to FFR.

By extension, would you then argue that music artists have no right to remove their songs when they voluntarily give permission for FFR? I'm not solid on all the technical stuff, but the music still needs to be edited and stored on the site. Does that music now belong to FFR? And if not, then why should we treat simfiles any differently from music? Both are creative works that FFR benefits from.

One can consider FFR as more of a museum. It's a host for creative content, but does not necessarily create any on its own (aside from game engines and the site itself). If an artist no longer wants his work on display, then take it down and move on. Until there is something set in stone saying otherwise, that's what needs to be done.