Need some opinions

[Arkuski]

Re: Need some opinions

You admins absolutely need to lay down the law now so that an argument like this does not happen in the future.

Personally, I see both sides of the argument. I actually like Vote4Nixon's files and I would hate to see them go. He should have been aware that he was relinquishing his right to the files once he submitted them, but then again, it should have been spelled out more clearly. However, if he wanted to possibly rework the files for quality reasons, I think it would be appreciated by all.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

Files shouldn't be removed from game unless there is an absolute necessity for the files to be removed -- extenuating circumstances like permission issues from the song artists, or technical errors with the simfile itself are issues that could be considered (for example, I wouldn't be against removing TGWP v2 due to lack of playability). Removing a file based off of negative commentary received or because of personal dislike is absolutely asinine and should not be considered.

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile. There are many applicable examples of when this happens, like creating content for a company -- when you create artwork/designs for a company under a NDA, that work becomes the work of the company you worked for. Regardless of what your overall opinion is, if you dislike what you created and the company likes it, you can't rescind your content and ask for your money back. FFR submissions have the exact same contingencies -- you can create the content under the impression to be used for the game, but there is nothing saying that it will or won't be in game. Once it is in game, you are credited appropriately, but the file belongs to and is associated with FFR.

If a simfile artist has an issue with the negative reception that they are receiving, they need to become a bit more thick-skinned and realize that simfile opinions from most people are on a subjective level -- my mantra for simfiling is this: as a simfiler, your job is to please at least one person with your hard work and concepts, since simfiling is arguably artistic due to discrepancies in charting styles. If you're able to please a single person, you've done your job -- that person is includes yourself as well. If you can please yourself, you've done well. If you please others, it's just an added bonus and a testament to what a good job you truly have done.

[xNiX]

Re: Need some opinions

Files shouldn't be removed from game unless there is an absolute necessity for the files to be removed -- extenuating circumstances like permission issues from the song artists, or technical errors with the simfile itself are issues that could be considered (for example, I wouldn't be against removing TGWP v2 due to lack of playability). Removing a file based off of negative commentary received or because of personal dislike is absolutely asinine and should not be considered.

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile. There are many applicable examples of when this happens, like creating content for a company -- when you create artwork/designs for a company under a NDA, that work becomes the work of the company you worked for. Regardless of what your overall opinion is, if you dislike what you created and the company likes it, you can't rescind your content and ask for your money back. FFR submissions have the exact same contingencies -- you can create the content under the impression to be used for the game, but there is nothing saying that it will or won't be in game. Once it is in game, you are credited appropriately, but the file belongs to and is associated with FFR.

If a simfile artist has an issue with the negative reception that they are receiving, they need to become a bit more thick-skinned and realize that simfile opinions from most people are on a subjective level -- my mantra for simfiling is this: as a simfiler, your job is to please at least one person with your hard work and concepts, since simfiling is arguably artistic due to discrepancies in charting styles. If you're able to please a single person, you've done your job -- that person is includes yourself as well. If you can please yourself, you've done well. If you please others, it's just an added bonus and a testament to what a good job you truly have done.

Good points. And I honestly do not really have anything to say with that.

[foxfire667]

Re: Need some opinions

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile.

Yes there are indeed rules against the distribution of FFR files as well as the FFR offline engine(s) at this point I believe. Although these rules are most likely in place because it is distributing FFR itself (as well as the property of musicians who gave consent for their music to be used on FFR without fear of distribution or other things like profit gain from the company).

For some reason I think people feel that music creators have virtually full rights to do anything at any time in regards to permissions, whereas stepfile authors have nearly no rights at all copyright wise. I'm not sure why this is the case (perhaps due to how things were explained and handled in the past regarding simfile authors) but until something is written up that states otherwise, they have just as much ownership of their materials as any musician does. It may have existed in the past, but with no current proof of the existence of rules that all stepartists relinquish their rights to FFR as soon as they submit a file, it essentially never really did. Sure, FFR can probably get away with it because I doubt a stepartist will file a lawsuit like a major record company might, but just because we can doesn't mean we should. If something is written up and appended to the submission rules quickly, we can hopefully put this problem behind us in the future.

[anubis2003]

Re: Need some opinions

I would imagine that stepfiles, like music, would be considered creative works, and thus copyright laws would apply to them. I am not a lawyer, and I think it would take a lawyer to truly answer the questions in this thread in a way that would hold up in court, but this basically comes down to whether submission of the simfile through the given process acts as a valid Copyright transfer agreement or not. If you want a definitive answer to that, I'd suggest getting in touch with a lawyer. Otherwise, just try to lay out the boundaries clearly as to what you expect to be allowed and what isn't allowed to keep this from happening in the future.

[Nullifidian]

Re: Need some opinions

Lets say if a simfile author wanted his file removed from the game. This particular file just so happens to be a legacy file and this particular file is also not heavily liked among the community. Based of these facts, the file would be removed in this scenario.

That's not a matter in legality, like foxfire already said. I'm just going to append to his post, that if someone has the right from a legal standpoint, he or she is able to act upon that despite of popular opinion of anyone else.


@ AJ, there's rules about distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they include rules about rights of simfiles. Unless it's specifically stated, the simfile author has the rights. Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of simfiles though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

@ AJ, there's rules about distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they include rules about rights of simfiles. Unless it's specifically stated, the simfile author has the rights. Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of files though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

Oh I completely understand the rules of distribution, which is why I provided a comparable/specific example of a NDA. Obviously there are other rules of distribution, though.

There wasn't a direct rule about file submissions, but I am 100% certain about there being a thread (used to be a sticky?) involving why in-game content couldn't be distributed. I'll see if I can find it.

[foxfire667]

Re: Need some opinions

Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of files though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

Pretty much this. Without definitive proof that there is no doubt a rule exists, in place that everyone can easily see, that submitting a file to FFR means the rights of the step artist are transferred to the site, they own the content. This of course, is under the assumption that merely having a rule posted they must adhere to before submitting, is all that is necessary legally to hold a case against someone. We should ensure this is all that is necessary legally if we wish to transfer their rights to FFR for complete and permanent permission to use the content.

I can understand the NDA AJ, but since both musicians and stepartists are giving permission to use their content completely voluntarily without any sort of rights transfer in place, they still have full control over their property. If they turn around and decide they no longer wish to give FFR permission, FFR must comply unless we can show a transfer of rights has occurred and they cannot demand for their content to be removed.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

In the instance of FFR though, I do feel like stepartists have leverage over in-game content because they are the ones that dictate whether or not a file gets into FFR. Musicians can give permission, but stepartists don't necessarily have to step a song when permission is obtained -- that process is voluntary. However, if a musician does give permission and a chart does enter the game, chart removal being alright seems hypocritical with your example, because the musician hasn't granted explicit permission to have it removed (and if they did, it falls under the previously mentioned extenuating circumstances).

EDIT: applicable scenario: an up-and-coming band grants permission to one of their songs, it gets released and causes slight jump in exposure of their home page due to FFR song list crediting, but then gets removed a week later due to the stepartist feeling like the chart is "inadequate". The musician in this case gets shafted.

EDIT #2: more personal scenario: AlexDest charted my breakcore track Cutthroat, and I'm really happy to see that it will be in game soon -- say that he were to want the file removed from FFR for whatever reason... I would be somewhat upset because I was excited to see it in game, and it would have been removed likely without me having a say as to why.

[foxfire667]

Re: Need some opinions

Musicians can give permission, but stepartists don't necessarily have to step a song when permission is obtained -- that process is voluntary. However, if a musician does give permission and a chart does enter the game, chart removal being alright seems hypocritical with your example, because the musician hasn't granted explicit permission to have it removed (and if they did, it falls under the previously mentioned extenuating circumstances).

Stepartists make charts just as voluntarily as musicians give permission for their music to be in game. The resulting product is an FFR file which only is able to exist with the explicit permission given from both the step author, and the musician. If either of the two parties wish to revoke their permissions, unless a rights transfer occurred, the FFR file must be removed in terms of legality.

As for your first example, as much as that sucks for the band, that is how it must be handled. Since FFR currently has no clear rule that states stepauthor rights are transferred to FFR upon submission, problems like this very well could arise.

As for your second example, your emotions have no effect on legality. I'm sure you are happy to see more of your music in game, but if he wishes to revoke his file from the game, at this point legally he has the full right.

Emotional repercussions have no effect on legality, and do not change that stepauthors currently have just as much right to remove any and all of their steps as musicians do their music. I'm not trying to say I agree with this action, or that I support it by any means, I'm just saying that is what is legally allowed. FFR has the ability to change this with the adaptation of rules that would strip stepauthors of some rights upon submission, but at the moment this isn't the case. This is why I keep saying this, so we don't have to worry about stepauthor rights in the future, and can keep charts regardless of the change in mind of the steppers.

[blindreper1179]

Re: Need some opinions

Let 'em be a bitch and remove them, and make a rule where the steps are ffr's after in game. I'm sure someone can make better steps anyways.

[alloyus]

Re: Need some opinions

I like Nixon's files don't do that

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Need some opinions

instead of wanting your bad files removed, make a piss load of great ones and put them in to balance out the bad ones. that'll show them who's boss.

[trumaestro]

Re: Need some opinions

I'm agreeing with foxfire here. If a music artist rescinds his permission and wants his songs removed, that is done, end of story. Currently, a step artist gives implicit permission to use his work simply by submitting. Why then should we treat step artists any different from music artists?

Until it's officially said otherwise, we should agree to remove files upon either the song or step artist's request.

[Bobby Jeffrey Hill]

Re: Need some opinions

seriously this is a bigger blow to your reputation than having shit charts.. what the hell are you doing >.>