Need some opinions

[ELRayford]

Re: Need some opinions

The simple solution would be to ban then delete the account. Problem solved.

[d4u7211]

Re: Need some opinions

Hey look
Legacy files are still in the game. Granted, even though no one has really explicitly asked for their legacy file to be removed, we haven't removed them because they're "bad." some people think that adds to the nostalgia/history/challenge. It shows a really well rounded player.

A file you create for FFR batches aren't "donations" to the site. Sure, you do the work, but the admins, judges, etc. Download the file, test the file, judge the file, convert the file, test the file more, frame fix the file, sync the file, add the file to the actual game, wait for vet feedback, change difficulties.

All of these things are the process for your file getting approved. You submit files to the game so that it can be a part of the site. Again, it isn't some donation or a service the stepper provides and they can just take out. The site does just as much work, maybe even more, than the stepper, to make the file worthwhile in the game. The stepper strives for that - the site doesn't "run" off the "donations," so to speak. (sure, it helps, and the system is great because of the diversity and the challenge of getting the files in, etc, but when you put it in this serious of a context this is what it boils down to. )

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

Stepartists make charts just as voluntarily as musicians give permission for their music to be in game. The resulting product is an FFR file which only is able to exist with the explicit permission given from both the step author, and the musician. If either of the two parties wish to revoke their permissions, unless a rights transfer occurred, the FFR file must be removed in terms of legality.

It can only exist if the permission is given from both parties, but again - will not exist unless the stepartist takes the initiative. If the song in question doesn't have respective permissions, then the simfile artist cannot step that file for FFR under any circumstances -- there is no choice in the matter. The other situation is not the complete inverse -- if the song does have the respective permission, the stepartist has the opportunity to do it, but is by no means required. You're looking at the difference between no option, and the potential of an option (as opposed to no option, and a guarantee).

I also have a differing opinion on another point -- whether or not it's correct thinking, I'm not sure.

This "rights transfer" that you mention is applied to both the musician and stepartist when a file is sent in for review/inclusion for the game. The stepartist has the right to their simfile as is (.sm/.dwi), and the musician has the right to their audio files (.mp3/.ogg), and anyone who doesn't agree with that is obviously very dense. That's not where the problem of simfile removal comes into play. Vote4Nixon has rights to his respective simfiles, and the artists have preemptively granted permission for these tracks to be used into the game. Let me go on a quick tangent here:

FFR is a website that is owned by a single person, and everything on it is implicitly owned by this same person -- this person technically has access to any and all assets contained within the site and reserves the right to modify or remove any particular content (responsibly: WHEN NECESSARY); this is pretty much inclusive to anything on the site (forums, forum accounts, chats, profiles, any other miscellaneous services, the game, etc). So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

As for your first example, as much as that sucks for the band, that is how it must be handled. Since FFR currently has no clear rule that states stepauthor rights are transferred to FFR upon submission, problems like this very well could arise.

As for your second example, your emotions have no effect on legality. I'm sure you are happy to see more of your music in game, but if he wishes to revoke his file from the game, at this point legally he has the full right.

My counter-example above appropriately responds to this particular thing, but I would like to add that because there is no system for handling this particular thing, neither party has a right to modify/change things that happens. FFR removing the content affects the musician, and leaving it in game affects the simfile artist's desired results -- it doesn't work out. There's no clear rule that states stepauthor rights, but there also is no clear rule that states musician rights in this particular scenario as well, so nothing -has- to be done, as the situation is currently fine the way it is.

[stargroup100]

Re: Need some opinions

if a chart author wants something removed just because he wants it so then no

if he has good reason (like I did) then yeah why not

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Need some opinions

If it's synthlight we are talking about, yes remove all his files right away thanks

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

if a chart author wants something removed just because he wants it so then no

if he has good reason (like I did) then yeah why not

Out of curiosity, what was the reason behind it?

Also, didn't realize that I was that close to being backpaged, so I'll put what I posted last page in a spoiler:

Stepartists make charts just as voluntarily as musicians give permission for their music to be in game. The resulting product is an FFR file which only is able to exist with the explicit permission given from both the step author, and the musician. If either of the two parties wish to revoke their permissions, unless a rights transfer occurred, the FFR file must be removed in terms of legality.

It can only exist if the permission is given from both parties, but again - will not exist unless the stepartist takes the initiative. If the song in question doesn't have respective permissions, then the simfile artist cannot step that file for FFR under any circumstances -- there is no choice in the matter. The other situation is not the complete inverse -- if the song does have the respective permission, the stepartist has the opportunity to do it, but is by no means required. You're looking at the difference between no option, and the potential of an option (as opposed to no option, and a guarantee).

I also have a differing opinion on another point -- whether or not it's correct thinking, I'm not sure.

This "rights transfer" that you mention is applied to both the musician and stepartist when a file is sent in for review/inclusion for the game. The stepartist has the right to their simfile as is (.sm/.dwi), and the musician has the right to their audio files (.mp3/.ogg), and anyone who doesn't agree with that is obviously very dense. That's not where the problem of simfile removal comes into play. Vote4Nixon has rights to his respective simfiles, and the artists have preemptively granted permission for these tracks to be used into the game. Let me go on a quick tangent here:

FFR is a website that is owned by a single person, and everything on it is implicitly owned by this same person -- this person technically has access to any and all assets contained within the site and reserves the right to modify or remove any particular content (responsibly: WHEN NECESSARY); this is pretty much inclusive to anything on the site (forums, forum accounts, chats, profiles, any other miscellaneous services, the game, etc). So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

As for your first example, as much as that sucks for the band, that is how it must be handled. Since FFR currently has no clear rule that states stepauthor rights are transferred to FFR upon submission, problems like this very well could arise.

As for your second example, your emotions have no effect on legality. I'm sure you are happy to see more of your music in game, but if he wishes to revoke his file from the game, at this point legally he has the full right.

My counter-example above appropriately responds to this particular thing, but I would like to add that because there is no system for handling this particular thing, neither party has a right to modify/change things that happens. FFR removing the content affects the musician, and leaving it in game affects the simfile artist's desired results -- it doesn't work out. There's no clear rule that states stepauthor rights, but there also is no clear rule that states musician rights in this particular scenario as well, so nothing -has- to be done, as the situation is currently fine the way it is.

[8 Hour Whore]

Re: Need some opinions

Yes, they should be allowed. I mean makes perfect sense. We should also have rappers and song artist that their music played in movies do the same damn thing.

-.- people annoy me

[Hakulyte]

Re: Need some opinions

I still don't get how someone can do something for free and lose their ability to have a say on their own material that made it into the game. Music artists gives permission for using their songs, but simfiles artists don't have anything saying that they give permission to FFR to lose property of their simfiles ignoring the distribution part.

If a music artist request removal of a song no one will say anything and it will be removed. (see FF7 last battle, Chrono Trigger etc.)
Why when the simfile artist request removal for X reason, it doesn't work out? (In fact, DrugstoreCowboy got Let Me Be Your Pirate removed, but since he's the one who made the music on top of stepping it, he had no issues with removal.. I know there's 22 files in the line this time, but the same logic should apply regardless.)
It doesn't matter if one person, ten people or one million people die in an accident. It sucks in every case.

Everyone should have an equal value when it comes to songs. Stepping is a voluntary process and should be treated with respect even if it means losing that amazing song everyone loved and played 500+ times in hope to achieve a good score.

As an example, It's like my parents bought me a Nintendo 64 for Christmas and decided to take it away after 2-3 months because I was playing 18 hours per day on it and now I got mad because they removed my N64 and I want to play video games. I mean cmon they're the ones who bought it, they got the right. It's not because I'm the main user that it matters. The only difference is that in FFR's case we got plenty of other songs left and more to come with batches etc. there's nothing wrong with these changes.

Hopefully that makes some sense.

/opinion

[stargroup100]

Re: Need some opinions

Out of curiosity, what was the reason behind it?

terrible song, suuuuperrr boorrrriiinnggg chart

the main reason I submitted it was actually to make a point that the judges back then had subpar standards and overall not very good judgments and reasoning behind their decisions

[8 Hour Whore]

Re: Need some opinions

We didn't have permission for FF7 or Chrono.. Only reason there was no discussion on that is because lawsuits. Permission is instantly given when you submit your stepchart.

[Nullifidian]

Re: Need some opinions

from a legal standpoint, FFR can't do anything about it unless stated explicitly that they own the rights. Rights don't get transferred without notifying both parties involved.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

I still don't get how someone can do something for free and lose their ability to have a say on their own material that made it into the game. Music artists gives permission for using their songs, but simfiles artists don't have anything saying that they give permission to FFR to lose property of their simfiles ignoring the distribution part.

It goes along with the fact that it technically isn't their material anymore because they voluntarily submitted it for inclusion into something that isn't theirs, and isn't intended to be open content (FFR keeps their levels hidden to prevent content downloading/distribution, compared to SM where things can be distributed/played on with no modification whatsoever). It doesn't seem like there's a process of legality because it's voluntary submission to something that doesn't make a profit. *shrug*

This topic is an arguable one that really doesn't have a viable solution on both sides (which is why I didn't bother quoting/responding to the rest) -- it all comes down to the fact that the removal is unnecessary, as permission was granted in the past by voluntary submission in the past but is being rescinded without a real discernible reason.

[SK8R43]

Re: Need some opinions

As an example, It's like my parents bought me a Nintendo 64 for Christmas and decided to take it away after 2-3 months because I was playing 18 hours per day on it and now I got mad because they removed my N64 and I want to play video games. I mean cmon they're the ones who bought it, they got the right. It's not because I'm the main user that it matters

Well, if they bought it FOR YOU then it is no longer theirs its yours. So technically they cannot take it away from you. Now if they bought it for the family and you played it that much they have the right to take it away lol

But i get exactly what you are saying
Some people might think differently on this, but in reality its really the way it should be regardless if they bought it or not. lol

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Need some opinions

Gonna quote myself to address one more thing:

So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

StepMania and FFR are two different things, and .sm files (an extension of StepMania) is created to be playable (or ported), on FFR. Porting is indicative of having the permission of the party involved - in this case, you give permission to port the file to FFR, and nothing between SM/FFR is copyrighted. FFR as an entity has considerably more leverage because submission to the game is voluntary -- essentially, you're giving up your rights to that simfile to have it created as a FFR file; you have rights to the SM file as its own entity, but you have no rights to the FFR conversion of it (the issue in question). If I were to create a program and it was open-source (comparable to SM, as the content is freely usable/modifiable/etc) with a license allowing derivatives to be created, then a person can do so without my permission whatsoever, and I can't do anything about it. In this case, V4N is creating content, and FFR is creating the derivative (different format, different engine, different game).

In terms of legalities, anyone who submits a simfile completely loses their rights the moment the file is converted, because it becomes a file -for FFR-, which again, is something that isn't intended to be "openly downloadable".

[Hakulyte]

Re: Need some opinions

It goes along with the fact that it technically isn't their material anymore because they voluntarily submitted it for inclusion into something that isn't theirs, and isn't intended to be open content (FFR keeps their levels hidden to prevent content downloading/distribution, compared to SM where things can be distributed/played on with no modification whatsoever). It doesn't seem like there's a process of legality because it's voluntary submission to something that doesn't make a profit. *shrug*

At this point, you may as well go back to admin forum and see what staff etc. thinks rather than members because as you said, there's no viable solution on both sides. It's more a matter of what the site is ready to do rather than what members think. I still think that adding guidelines/updating info about what it means to be a stepfile artist on FFR should be done regardless to avoid confusion, but there's not much to add. Thanks for clarifying how it works.