Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

At this point i feel theres such a severe disconnect on what constitutes a well made dump that further discussion is pointless as I don't see a lot of common ground to discuss this on with parts of the opposition.

Vrofl and Legacy files are not good comparisons in this case. we're just going to be going in circles until thats been established. Perhaps this would be worth revisiting once a few charts from this batch have been released.

[riktoi]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

To song artists who in most cases aren't so experienced with rhythm gaming, vROFL and other dumps appear similarly to them so I am mainly speaking from their perspective. This isn't implying that all accepted dumps in Dump Batch are of similar quality to vROFL (and it is not what I'm implying by mentioning it).

You do not chart a song for the song artists. You chart for the player and/or yourself. It does not matter in the slightest how they see your file.

I genuinely don't understand how this can be so difficult. Your argument literally boils down to transformative work shouldn't be transformative, which is just a flat out ridiculous ideology to have.

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I stepped the TV static very accurately to the music. that part took me hours. ffr is the only 'true' 4k rhythm game left because it actually steps accurately to the music, and it makes ffr unique.

rhythm game purism is such a funny argument
lmao

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Not coincidentally, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that almost all the original files in FFR are huge pieces of shit.

is this because of the early stepping meta paired with the state of ffr's engine circa early 2000s or is this because people were intentionally stepping things with incorrect tempos and "incorrect" patterns
you've been a member of this site long enough to know about the game's limitations and that the community's general understanding of what made a file classically good took years to truly develop, even with all of dumb gatekeepy shit that went on during the dark chancellor's era

The point I’m raising is from the perspective of the song artist who we’ve all gone out to seek for permissions to use their work and not related to how FFR should remain outdated in the charting meta to cater to the older crowd. If a buffet potentially have many food options, is it intended for the chefs to go serve everything in their inventory to the hungry customers? They can if they want but in most buffets, that’s not the main goal. Similarly, in most cases, it’s not the main intention for the song artist to create content for FFR that calls for dump files.

for many artists, rhythm games are nowhere on their radar when it comes to production. that's even true for many of the styles of music that are currently in ffr. artists in certain idm scenes like terminal11 were physically releasing music in the early 2000s on obscure labels that had absolutely no connection to rhythm games, not even tangentially. the entirety of monstercat is mainstream festival edm. if you want to bring up the pattern argument, artists might be able to catch glimpses of pattern usage in a chart as it's playing in front of them but beyond a certain level it all gets parsed as a blur.

I really think this entire conversation is sullied by virtue of what we call these charts. the etymology of "dump" is that we're just "dumping arrows," and yeah if you tell an artist that you used their music to "create a dump," they have zero context and will assume you're calling their music a "steaming dump."

imo a lot of this can be averted by referring to them as something different, and I really think "abstract" is a much better and much more accurate term to describe them. you're not charting something literally, you're abstracting the feel of the music into the chart itself.

Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward.

this is all great and cool but still doesn't resolve the problem of a lot of the end-game music being more and more unlistenable as the difficulty increases.

I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

do not remove old content from the game, remove it from ranks

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I feel as if dumps attack FFR's identity, not that FFR had much of an mechanics-based identity that differentiated it from other rhythm games in the first place. The resistance against putting dumps side by side to normal files is because it brings the game closer to other simulator VSRGs, and in turn REDUCES the uniqueness of FFR. It's not that such files lack merit; it's that FFR has less and less that makes it attractively different from other games, besides maybe a lack of hold arrows. I'd love for FFR to invent a whole new mechanic, but we lack the resources to really make something totally new that stands out. Currently, what makes FFR unique has more to do with what types of charts the game has to offer as opposed to a gameplay-based distinction (except no holds of course). A lot of FFR's past identity was unfortunately based more on limitations rather than innovations. Some of these limitations that were resolved I think greatly improved FFR as a whole, such as weaning ourselves off of framer-based gameplay. But I'm not entirely sure how much FFR would benefit from dumps, though I'm totally willing to have them in the game as a separate category. To place them side by side with normal files is to introduce homogeneity to FFR's identity.

To me, dump files forces us to rethink FFR's identity, how much people even care about identity anymore, and if FFR's overall growth as a site and community can continue with limitations on potential innovations. Dumps to me is one more step towards a lack of uniqueness - but it remains to be seen whether new folks will choose FFR versus other VSRGs in the future. We're certainly getting a lot of new players currently, but they're mainly from pre-existing rhythm gaming communities and I'd like to see some more organic growth. At the very least, dumps are just catering to the echo chamber of seasoned rhythm gamers and we're not really doing much to make it attractive for new, novice players.
Overall, we're looking more inwards than we are outwards IMO.

FFR's content niche, at least since the end of the widget era, has focused on well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg.

FFR's content niche, with the addition of dumps, will focus on well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg.

Many recent file submissions have included some elements that one might have associated only with dump files. These files pushed the boundaries of what FFR would accept. And we've accepted many of them. Because they're well-polished, quality charts.

So this batch just reduces FFR's boundaries to more thorough dump charts -- rather than a handful of elements like in wubdumps, you can make the whole chart have interesting elements to interpret the music to. We're really just allowing another style of well-polished, quality charts.

Just because the boundaries have changed doesn't mean you can't still push them further. Just because we're allowing more explicitly dump charts doesn't take away from traditional "tech" charts. If it's a well-polished, quality chart, it'll be equally appreciated.

It's just up to us judges to maintain the well-polished, quality status of charts with the addition of dumps. I have every confidence in the judge team to do so. We're still looking for internal consistency and musical relevance, as well as effectiveness and "not-complete-bs-ness" of a stepartist's choices. These are exceptionally similar to what we're already looking for. Even if many of the judge team hasn't/don't make dump files, we're also not above asking for insight from people more experienced with dumps to help ensure we're accepting well-polished, quality charts.

Novice players most likely won't see dumps, at least until they skillboost up a bunch from passing Control. I'm not certain it's possible to make a dump chart easier than at least ~65 in FFR's current difficulty scale. But I'd love to be proven wrong on this with well-polished, quality charts.

What really made FFR unique among vsrg's was always being able to play well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg. But also to do that in a web browser with no real additional downloads. Returning that capability after the death of Flash is in development.

--

I also vehemently oppose segregating dumps in any way, be it with a tag, new genre, removed from regular level ranks, whatever. We'd just be setting ourselves up for categorization hell (is x file a dump?) when we encounter those files that blur the edges between dump and "tech." We already have a number of those in the game, contributing to level ranks, behaving like regular files. Because they are regular files.

Just because dumps in FFR is "new" (despite having some already) doesn't mean we need to distinguish them separately in any way. A news post about it is more than enough. We didn't need to segregate Blooddrunk v1 just because it had something new to FFR at the time (hands).

There's no need for any disclaimer on the well-polished, quality dump charts we're likely to accept.

--

So, you do raise a strong point that this would cut down on the uniqueness of FFR as a client- there is a lot of truth to the statement. However, I don't necessarily agree that its as big of a problem as some may perceive it to be.

Hi, Non-native fifferian here! allow me to share my experience coming to FFR from an outside source and why I tend to stick around- The community, the (relative to other VSRGs) unique take on scoring via raw goods, the events such as the OT, FFRMas, and previous OWL tournament, and all the different systems of tracking progression. (equiv rating lifetime / seasonal, AV-rank, skill tokens, even tier points). Those are ordered from most to least relevant btw.

By far, the most appealing part of FFR is the community. When compared to similar rhythm games theres no contest, the people here are generally rather friendly and mature and quite frankly the game could be like it was in 2005 and i'd still at least be here to hang out. But beyond being full of good company:

Raw goods is a fun scoring metric thats a lot less ambiguous than some seemingly arbitrarily calculated osu!mania score value or a wife3%, it feels like every error has a lot more weight to it and it introduces, to me, a different way to approach playing. Or at the very least, a different way to set scoring goals.

Obviously I don't need to explain why the events around here are appealing, nor all the different numbers FFR chooses to track, but I can summarize it as FFR having a lot of "minigames" built into the same overall gameplay. theres a deceptively diverse set of things going on. maybe this week youre equiv grinding, then you have a session working on token unlocks or tierpoints and now hey, new tournament / event is starting soon. Sure, osu!mania has its fair share of tournaments, but honestly I think FFR does them better and certainly has more variety in format.

All of this is to say that theres more to FFRs outward appeal than the charts on the engine. A lot of the content on FFR I had previously been exposed to before I really knew what FFR was via etterna packs and to me they just came off as just another file to be played. I never came here to experience this unique set of content because, to me, it already wasnt that unique to begin with and i didn't realize that the content on here was of a very specific type and grade until someone eventually told me. With the benefit of more time and playing more files, sure, theres a strong tendency to some more technical content which is less common on some rhythm games, but I cant say it was ever an influencing factor in what initially prompted me to pick up the game. It was those things I mentioned above, there being dumps in the list of charts wouldn't have even factored into the decision making process.

Sure, I'm only one person, everyones experience and priorities are going to vary- If nothing else, I hope it at least contextualizes the angle I'm coming at this from.

Also wanted to mention that this post is one of the most genuinely heart-warming things I've read in some time, and I greatly appreciate it.

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

The organic growth comes from casuals, the general public. So I view folks like high-levelled players to be influencers in a sense, especially if they display their skills in videos, streams, and so on.

do you remember when you posted a video of lcd soundsystem performing on saturday night live in the ffr discord? you seemed completely blown away by the fact that people liked this band lol. you said some shit about not being able to "get it" lol.
hate to break it to you bub, but the casuals, the general public? they aren't listening to idm, or breakcore, or glitchcore, or any of the rhythmically wild music that currently sits in the highest levels of ffr. they are listening to the artists that show up on television shows like saturday night live.
the way that folks like you and me listen to music after nearly 20 years of playing vsrgs is completely different than how casual gamers in the general public listen to music.

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I wonder how many people only know of air by shiki because porterhouse robinson dropped it in a live set

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

FFR has for years prided itself on having high-quality files; charting was down to an artform, and it actually took skill to make a good chart.

what do you mean, was? it still is, you dork.

this is also probably demotivating for the stepartists who put so much effort making their chart perfect all this time. it’s like it was pointless and it’s like, why continue to put in effort anymore into charts, or chart at all?

I dump a bunch of time into my charts, trying to figure out precisely what it is I want to communicate with my chart, and how to represent the music as well as I possibly can. none of this is pointless, and none of it is devalued.

[bmah]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

FFR's content niche, at least since the end of the widget era, has focused on well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg.

FFR's content niche, with the addition of dumps, will focus on well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg.

Many recent file submissions have included some elements that one might have associated only with dump files. These files pushed the boundaries of what FFR would accept. And we've accepted many of them. Because they're well-polished, quality charts.

So this batch just reduces FFR's boundaries to more thorough dump charts -- rather than a handful of elements like in wubdumps, you can make the whole chart have interesting elements to interpret the music to. We're really just allowing another style of well-polished, quality charts.

Just because the boundaries have changed doesn't mean you can't still push them further. Just because we're allowing more explicitly dump charts doesn't take away from traditional "tech" charts. If it's a well-polished, quality chart, it'll be equally appreciated.

BUT as I said earlier, FFR risks becoming just another analog to other rhythm games with these similarities. "High-quality dumps" are not something I dispute as mentioned earlier, but it'd be great if further innovations can be conceived in turn to combat a lack of differentiation. Is community (every game has a community) and a more curated list of charts alone good enough for the site to thrive through years to come?
I'd hope you'd address this with a holistic perspective of FFR and its overall outlook and growth through what makes it stand out from other games, something it has less and less of as time goes by. I'm not here to dispute the nature of dumps themselves.

do you remember when you posted a video of lcd soundsystem performing on saturday night live in the ffr discord? you seemed completely blown away by the fact that people liked this band lol. you said some shit about not being able to "get it" lol.
hate to break it to you bub, but the casuals, the general public? they aren't listening to idm, or breakcore, or glitchcore, or any of the rhythmically wild music that currently sits in the highest levels of ffr. they are listening to the artists that show up on television shows like saturday night live.
the way that folks like you and me listen to music after nearly 20 years of playing vsrgs is completely different than how casual gamers in the general public listen to music.

Yeah I remember that and still think that band is shit lol. But I digress.
You actually present a potential argument to have such "casuals" be interested in listening to new types of songs they would otherwise not be aware of. As you mentioned, casuals listen to those latest up and coming bands. FFR could be an introduction to other types of music, and not necessarily "rhythm game music" either. There's a large number of folks here who appreciate stuff like ambient, idm, etc. as you said. For a while, especially in earlier years, FFR made a greater case to promote artists. Actually, as recently as a few months ago, we're trying to bring back this emphasis via detailed front page posts.
tl;dr yes casuals don't listen to breakcore...but why not let FFR be an avenue to promote new music. Get that curiosity of new genres of music going through the medium of a fun game.

Hi, Non-native fifferian here! allow me to share my experience coming to FFR from an outside source and why I tend to stick around- The community, the (relative to other VSRGs) unique take on scoring via raw goods, the events such as the OT, FFRMas, and previous OWL tournament, and all the different systems of tracking progression. (equiv rating lifetime / seasonal, AV-rank, skill tokens, even tier points). Those are ordered from most to least relevant btw.

By far, the most appealing part of FFR is the community. When compared to similar rhythm games theres no contest, the people here are generally rather friendly and mature and quite frankly the game could be like it was in 2005 and i'd still at least be here to hang out. But beyond being full of good company:

Raw goods is a fun scoring metric thats a lot less ambiguous than some seemingly arbitrarily calculated osu!mania score value or a wife3%, it feels like every error has a lot more weight to it and it introduces, to me, a different way to approach playing. Or at the very least, a different way to set scoring goals.

Obviously I don't need to explain why the events around here are appealing, nor all the different numbers FFR chooses to track, but I can summarize it as FFR having a lot of "minigames" built into the same overall gameplay. theres a deceptively diverse set of things going on. maybe this week youre equiv grinding, then you have a session working on token unlocks or tierpoints and now hey, new tournament / event is starting soon. Sure, osu!mania has its fair share of tournaments, but honestly I think FFR does them better and certainly has more variety in format.

All of this is to say that theres more to FFRs outward appeal than the charts on the engine. A lot of the content on FFR I had previously been exposed to before I really knew what FFR was via etterna packs and to me they just came off as just another file to be played. I never came here to experience this unique set of content because, to me, it already wasnt that unique to begin with and i didn't realize that the content on here was of a very specific type and grade until someone eventually told me. With the benefit of more time and playing more files, sure, theres a strong tendency to some more technical content which is less common on some rhythm games, but I cant say it was ever an influencing factor in what initially prompted me to pick up the game. It was those things I mentioned above, there being dumps in the list of charts wouldn't have even factored into the decision making process.

Sure, I'm only one person, everyones experience and priorities are going to vary- If nothing else, I hope it at least contextualizes the angle I'm coming at this from.

I'm very stoked to hear this. I can only hope that new folks have a similarly open outlook as you.
I think what we're missing are tools to more accurately measure the opinions of the general populace of FFR, NOT the "perceived" populace of FFR (the vocal, active community). Tools such as polls built into the site that pops up for every single user, so that even "quiet casuals" can participate.
Do you remember the time a couple months ago when the FFR game was down? Players I've never seen before suddenly started popping up in the Discord server asking for help. These are folks who would likely have never made a visible presence otherwise - I think this is proof that there are a lot of folks out there who just play the game and don't say a word. It'd be great if we could reach out to everyone on various subject matters and get a truer overall opinion of the site as a whole.
(and I think it's a mistake to assume that only the people who speak up matters)

Just to reiterate, the reason why I'm putting so much emphasis on this holistic perspective is because it ties back to FFR's growth and identity. Just trying to keep a perspective to have the site and community healthy for years to come. Dumps? Great. But let's continually try to come up with other new things while we're at it.

[FlynnMac]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

From a player perspective: I would actually enjoy and play FFR more if there were 'dumps' in game, not separated to where they don't count for anything. Maybe just like a tag or something so people know. But as a player, I actually enjoy listening to good music as I play, not just the same boring assfartcore stuff, and 'dumps' really provide there where FFR lacks songwise. The idea that 'dumps' are bad and shouldn't belong feels pretty elitist to me personally, since 'dumps' don't necessarily take away from a chart's quality if done in the right manner. It just personally feels like there's a major disconnect between steppers here and players in that sense. It may just be me but I do not care in the slightest if it is technically accurate, if it is just bpm synced well enough and follows along decently, I'll like it. FFR can still have high-quality files and allow 'dumps' in game. It's not hard, just stop gatekeeping so higher level players actually have more of a reason to play the damn game.

[bmah]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Dumps are fine but I sense that it caters mostly to a vocal minority who are very active in the community and are capable of playing them. We keep talking about getting more content for higher-levelled players. Just as one can argue "higher level players actually have more of a reason to play the damn game" I'm still concerned about content and innovations for...well...everyone else? It circles back to what I mentioned earlier about organic growth and not only looking towards very seasoned players that are already familiar with rhythm games.

[WirryWoo]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

You do not chart a song for the song artists. You chart for the player and/or yourself. It does not matter in the slightest how they see your file.

I genuinely don't understand how this can be so difficult. Your argument literally boils down to transformative work shouldn't be transformative, which is just a flat out ridiculous ideology to have.

So why do we go out to seek for permissions on FFR, but in Etterna and maybe osumania, we can chart whatever we want without worrying much about seeking for permissions? If I really wanted to chart something for the players and myself, I would have chosen other music that we don't have permissions for on FFR.

I don't understand how my argument boils down to that ridiculous ideology. All I'm doing is using past examples of what was previously done to create FFR's identity (at least I thought these are fair examples) and trying to understand how well stepped dumps can fit into that vision. I personally don't see it fit based on what I said, and it's fine to disagree with my arguments, but please do point out specific disagreements in my argument so we can see where the differences of our opinion lie.

for many artists, rhythm games are nowhere on their radar when it comes to production. that's even true for many of the styles of music that are currently in ffr. artists in certain idm scenes like terminal11 were physically releasing music in the early 2000s on obscure labels that had absolutely no connection to rhythm games, not even tangentially. the entirety of monstercat is mainstream festival edm. if you want to bring up the pattern argument, artists might be able to catch glimpses of pattern usage in a chart as it's playing in front of them but beyond a certain level it all gets parsed as a blur.

I really think this entire conversation is sullied by virtue of what we call these charts. the etymology of "dump" is that we're just "dumping arrows," and yeah if you tell an artist that you used their music to "create a dump," they have zero context and will assume you're calling their music a "steaming dump."

imo a lot of this can be averted by referring to them as something different, and I really think "abstract" is a much better and much more accurate term to describe them. you're not charting something literally, you're abstracting the feel of the music into the chart itself.

This is a fair point. I understand that not many musicians are intentionally creating content specifically for FFR and I agree that song artists may not have the gaming comprehension to rhythmically parse steps in stepfiles. But if a song is intended to be rhythmically simple, yet we are creating a well crafted dump just to improve song choice variety for the higher skilled players, wouldn't that be blatantly obvious to see how certain sounds are unnecessarily stepped as a blurb of arrows? By creating these well crafted dumps, are we really abstracting the feel of music appropriately or are we only just doing this to cater the vocal high division playerbase? I personally believe it's the latter.

this is all great and cool but still doesn't resolve the problem of a lot of the end-game music being more and more unlistenable as the difficulty increases.

The statement you are responding to was more so addressed to why Legacy files are offsynced (at least it's why I think it is). It's not a proposed solution to resolve how unpleasing music is to listen to for higher difficulty files.

do not remove old content from the game, remove it from ranks

That's fine too. Being aware of the community's stance on this, they won't like this idea either because there will be arguments like: "Why is file X removed from ranks? That's my best score in my Top 100... and this file is removed from ranks because it's just a 'bad' file?!" Again, it's a controversial opinion I'll always have, so I won't comment further on it haha.

From a player perspective: I would actually enjoy and play FFR more if there were 'dumps' in game, not separated to where they don't count for anything. Maybe just like a tag or something so people know. But as a player, I actually enjoy listening to good music as I play, not just the same boring assfartcore stuff, and 'dumps' really provide there where FFR lacks songwise. The idea that 'dumps' are bad and shouldn't belong feels pretty elitist to me personally, since 'dumps' don't necessarily take away from a chart's quality if done in the right manner. It just personally feels like there's a major disconnect between steppers here and players in that sense. It may just be me but I do not care in the slightest if it is technically accurate, if it is just bpm synced well enough and follows along decently, I'll like it. FFR can still have high-quality files and allow 'dumps' in game. It's not hard, just stop gatekeeping so higher level players actually have more of a reason to play the damn game.

I don't personally see it as gatekeeping to dislike having well crafted dumps in game. I think the primary concern myself and many others who disagree with having well crafted dumps is how similar FFR will become with other rhythm games if we start introducing these files in the game. If someone really wants to play these well crafted dumps, there is more support in Etterna via dump packs right? There's the FFRmania engine as well. There are essentially options to cater to the higher skilled crowd, yet there is still dissatisfaction because for some reason, these files need to be on every rhythm gaming medium. We've already seen enough higher level players playing only the hardest files in FFR and then disappear until the next OT. They're really not playing the game if they keep doing that, right? Haha.

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

BUT as I said earlier, FFR risks becoming just another analog to other rhythm games with these similarities. "High-quality dumps" are not something I dispute as mentioned earlier, but it'd be great if further innovations can be conceived in turn to combat a lack of differentiation. Is community (every game has a community) and a more curated list of charts alone good enough for the site to thrive through years to come?
I'd hope you'd address this with a holistic perspective of FFR and its overall outlook and growth through what makes it stand out from other games, something it has less and less of as time goes by. I'm not here to dispute the nature of dumps themselves.
[snip]
Just to reiterate, the reason why I'm putting so much emphasis on this holistic perspective is because it ties back to FFR's growth and identity. Just trying to keep a perspective to have the site and community healthy for years to come. Dumps? Great. But let's continually try to come up with other new things while we're at it.

I don't personally see it as gatekeeping to dislike having well crafted dumps in game. I think the primary concern myself and many others who disagree with having well crafted dumps is how similar FFR will become with other rhythm games if we start introducing these files in the game. If someone really wants to play these well crafted dumps, there is more support in Etterna via dump packs right? There's the FFRmania engine as well. There are essentially options to cater to the higher skilled crowd, yet there is still dissatisfaction because for some reason, these files need to be on every rhythm gaming medium. We've already seen enough higher level players playing only the hardest files in FFR and then disappear until the next OT. They're really not playing the game if they keep doing that, right? Haha.

Keeping dumps out of the game in favour of a unique experience from other vsrg's has been the strategy of the past 10+ years and this game has basically not grown at all in that time.

At the very least, we're trying something new to FFR here, and expanding the pool of viable artists to select music from. To me, dumps will be at worst neutral in "growing the game."

If you want to grow this game, it isn't going to be purely from good content. Countless SOTWs have proven this.
The site sees its heaviest traffic during events like the OT. So host an event.
FFR files are just notes. So advocate for/develop new mechanics. Host an event with new mechanics.
The most distinguishing factor FFR has ever had was being able to play it in a web browser. So go help develop rrr.

From a new content perspective, this batch was a relatively obvious move. We can find ways to incentivize the type of files you want to see too. If you have ideas on either what you want to see brought in or how you want to do so, I'm all ears.

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

+1 to choofs suggestion for calling dumps "abstract charts".

[mi40]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

do you remember when you posted a video of lcd soundsystem performing on saturday night live in the ffr discord? you seemed completely blown away by the fact that people liked this band lol. you said some shit about not being able to "get it" lol.
hate to break it to you bub, but the casuals, the general public? they aren't listening to idm, or breakcore, or glitchcore, or any of the rhythmically wild music that currently sits in the highest levels of ffr. they are listening to the artists that show up on television shows like saturday night live.
the way that folks like you and me listen to music after nearly 20 years of playing vsrgs is completely different than how casual gamers in the general public listen to music.

i love yellowcard and blink 182