Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[s1rnight]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

i think there is an alchemy between the way the chart feels to play and the way the song sounds that can quite easily be lost - its what animated the original ddr games for example, back when it was literally tied to dance (slow genres of dance were the easier charts, whereas energetic genres of dance were the more difficult charts)

[s1rnight]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

(it brings to heart the same kind of healthy collaboration you see more obviously among the japanese rhythm gamers with things like the BMS contests, where people write songs in order to write charts for them, which then stimulates dreams of more songs that could be written for charts yet to be made, which then stimulates more songs made to be written for charts, and so on, and they work symbiotically...!)

(it would be dangerous, for example, to say "well, there are a lot of songs, but it is the charts that matter, so i will use any song to make any chart i want", because any possibility for wider interaction is then lost... you lose, for example, the sense that what a person does when he hits the arrows is a kind of drumming, and itself a part of the very music he is hitting along to...)

(though at some point, when he hits the keys/"drums" fast enough, there is a sense that what he is doing is no longer "drumming" as such, either... for example, a "300 bpm" stream is already equivalent to a 20hz tone! because of that, i often see the temptation in the osu!mania files, such as for example, in "mario paint [d.another]" to treat a vibrato or even a single sustained tone as a "very fast vibration of drum notes"... since that is in a sense what it is...!)

[s1rnight]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

(its beyond the scope of the website, but i often wonder if that "vibratory" open problem, where sufficiently fast drumming begins to sound like a tone, could be solved with a secondary peripheral/mechanic where a guy blows into a mouthpiece at different rates/strengths... it'd be unsanitary to have as an arcade game, but it'd work very well for a home computer!)

[Wind0ze]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Most charter's idea of a modern quality dump chart has nearly complete overlap with what makes a conventional chart good, with the exception of the notion that each note must correlate with the attack of one sound as Wiosna said before. Layering, pitch relevancy, pattern motifs, difficulty balance, and everything else that one would usually consider is something that is considered in a good dump chart. Equating every dump chart to vROFL on the grounds that both don't follow the singular difference between these two charting styles is akin to equating every conventional file with that one joke file Stargroup made where he put 64th jacks to Amber Shores because both follow the "Assign notes to attacks only" rule.

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

The 1:1 association of notes to rhythms in a chart is a concept that becomes increasingly irrelevant the higher the speed of the chart is. Nobody playing a T11/devnull/whatever chart is processing the 25+ KPS rainbow bursts to garbled cacophonies of sliced drum samples as a series of individual notes that form a rhythm, both the pattern and the sound itself are perceived as one entity, with the characteristics of the pattern correlating to aspects of the collective sound formed that have nothing to do with what rhythm is actually being played at over a tempo far faster than anyone can actually distinguish the individual notes. By acknowledging this perception and applying it to other sounds that are characterized more by aspects such as frequency and timbre rather than rhythm (Dubstep wubs, vocals, etc.), dump charts can be constructed in a way that is just as contingent on what the music is currently doing as conventional charting, if not more. It is this perspective on dump charting that I think FFR has been gravitating towards, and I think it makes sense as it's just an extension of how players already perceive harder charts. The inclusion of dumps into FFR does not necessarily have to compromise the site's focus on charts with a strong association to the music, as long as dumps are evaluated with the expectation of an approach like this.

[Pizza69]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Wind0ze's post is really great and sums up my reasons for wanting this batch perfectly, as well as how my approach has shifted as a stepartist. I'm unabashedly a T11 & DEV/NULL enjoyer, I've made several technically correct 100+ files for their songs and am sure I'll make more in the future. However, partially because of the experience of charting those and then experiencing them months later as a player, my principal focus in charts I've made in the past year and a half or so has been on flow and matching the intensity of the song... which is exactly the goal of most modern dump charting (though my charts have still generally been fully technical). So, I'm just here to give a massive +1 to this:

It is this perspective on dump charting that I think FFR has been gravitating towards, and I think it makes sense as it's just an extension of how players already perceive harder charts. The inclusion of dumps into FFR does not necessarily have to compromise the site's focus on charts with a strong association to the music, as long as dumps are evaluated with the expectation of an approach like this.

[WirryWoo]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Ever since joining the site, I've always associated FFR as a platform to create more exposure to new artist's music through a fun rhythm game medium. It's why we always have to go out to seek for permissions to use artist's music in the game and it's why I'm in high support for visions like the recent "The Official New Musician Reward System" where step artists are rewarded for creating content to push towards that eye-opening vision for the broader community. I strongly believe that this is the main distinguishing aspect of the game compared to other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania! (it's also why I'm not interested in these games because I only play this game for fun but that's just my own personal bias speaking here).

That said, I do think that creating "dumps" removes many great opportunities to musically and rhythmically reflect the goals of a musician's work and personally I think that's really a shame. Even though other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania are not designed as safe havens for dumps, there is a reason why top players are playing dump-like files much more on these rhythm gaming platforms. In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps. We can push towards that direction if we want, but I do think it's really important to respect the initial goals of why FFR exists, and the initial reasons why FFR is successful in the first place. The game has certainly involved past those initial goals, but it's really up to us and the community to refocus on defining where we want FFR to be many years from now.

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

That said, I do think that creating "dumps" removes many great opportunities to musically and rhythmically reflect the goals of a musician's work and personally I think that's really a shame. Even though other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania are not designed as safe havens for dumps, there is a reason why top players are playing dump-like files much more on these rhythm gaming platforms. In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps. We can push towards that direction if we want, but I do think it's really important to respect the initial goals of why FFR exists, and the initial reasons why FFR is successful in the first place. The game has certainly involved past those initial goals, but it's really up to us and the community to refocus on defining where we want FFR to be many years from now.

I don't think creating dumps "removes" any opportunities to do anything. The existing charting meta isn't going to suddenly shift away from technically focused charts just because we're not auto-rejecting dumps and / or allowing them to have their own batch and I'm sure theres going to continue to be high quality content produced that fits the traditional FFR style.

Apologies in advance for the blasphemy I'm about to spew but the modern 4key VSRG scene is a far cry from the vision FFR had when it was first created. And while the content being released on FFR today has clearly evolved along with it, its still a relatively narrow subsection of what can be created on this medium. And, from the perspective of a player, my goal is to have a good time playing fun charts. The music and expression of the music is secondary to this most of the time. I'm able to appreciate the artform of charting and recognize that the content FFR currently focuses on is fun, but I can only see it as a massive shame that a relatively prominent and popular genre of chart (in the greater 4key VSRG scene) is being rejected by so many people because it doesn't fit into this narrow subsection of "what has been".

Sure, I'm new to the community- I've got no ties to the older days of FFR and no real value towards preserving how things have traditionally been. From my perspective, though, FFR has been taking a lot of great steps forwards towards establishing itself as a more viable client to play on in the modern day (even in the short couple years i've been paying attention). I think expanding the type of content being offered is another important step in continuing this trend.

Is FFR around today to appeal to the older generation of players that grew up with it? Or does FFR want to try to establish a wider appeal and continue to grow all these years later?

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Quick heads up - only ~1 week left to get in any submissions to the dump batch!

If you miss it or fill your submission cap, you can still send dump files to the regular batch.

[sff_writer_dan]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps.

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

[M0nkeyz]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

The line between what's a dump and what's not a dump is blurry at the moment, I think cases where the dump sections make sense both musically and intensity-wise are perfectly fine. A dump file should in my mind still adhere to the rules that normal files do; sync, chart structure and layering remain facets that charts will be judged on.

Shindeiru in my opinion is one of the best dumps we currently have in the game, it has a very clear structure and all the sounds are consistently stepped. Yes, the use of bursts for wub sounds can be considered an exaggeration, but in my mind it's the same thing as stepping every single background noise in HFF or RATO or going crazy with chordjacks and heavy JS.

FFR is changing, the quality of dumps has changed. High quality dump files like the Sharpnel JS files or some of the wub-dumps like vantablack, shindeiru and rainshower all have a place in current FFR and the reception has been mostly positive.
I definitely raised an eyebrow when I saw the ''dump batch'' pop up. I've had trepidations around the image of FFR and how this will affect it, about how FFR would lose its niche as a place for accurately stepped technical charts and I think people's concerns are valid. However, I think FFR's biggest niche is having a tight-knit community and an engine full of songs that are easily recognized without the need to download a bunch of packs.

Lastly, the current judge team's ability to judge dumps remains to be seen. Since our team consists of mostly new judges the road has been a bit bumpy at times, but I think we're improving at a rapid rate. I've personally become alot more open-minded and alot better at figuring out people's intend when making stuff than I was before and I think I'm ready to assess dump files at this point.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

Not coincidentally, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that almost all the original files in FFR are huge pieces of shit.
To nobody's surprise, people like it when the arrows follow the music.

[WirryWoo]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I don't think creating dumps "removes" any opportunities to do anything. The existing charting meta isn't going to suddenly shift away from technically focused charts just because we're not auto-rejecting dumps and / or allowing them to have their own batch and I'm sure theres going to continue to be high quality content produced that fits the traditional FFR style.

Apologies in advance for the blasphemy I'm about to spew but the modern 4key VSRG scene is a far cry from the vision FFR had when it was first created. And while the content being released on FFR today has clearly evolved along with it, its still a relatively narrow subsection of what can be created on this medium. And, from the perspective of a player, my goal is to have a good time playing fun charts. The music and expression of the music is secondary to this most of the time. I'm able to appreciate the artform of charting and recognize that the content FFR currently focuses on is fun, but I can only see it as a massive shame that a relatively prominent and popular genre of chart (in the greater 4key VSRG scene) is being rejected by so many people because it doesn't fit into this narrow subsection of "what has been".

Sure, I'm new to the community- I've got no ties to the older days of FFR and no real value towards preserving how things have traditionally been. From my perspective, though, FFR has been taking a lot of great steps forwards towards establishing itself as a more viable client to play on in the modern day (even in the short couple years i've been paying attention). I think expanding the type of content being offered is another important step in continuing this trend.

Is FFR around today to appeal to the older generation of players that grew up with it? Or does FFR want to try to establish a wider appeal and continue to grow all these years later?

The way I view dumps (which I’m not completely against, Rainshower is actually a well crafted dump file) is similar to the idea of going to a buffet and eating all options possible because they’re there. Would you enjoy the buffet experience? It depends on how much the song offers. Rainshower offers a small selection of options in the buffet so eating everything is tolerable in this case.

The point I’m raising is from the perspective of the song artist who we’ve all gone out to seek for permissions to use their work and not related to how FFR should remain outdated in the charting meta to cater to the older crowd. If a buffet potentially have many food options, is it intended for the chefs to go serve everything in their inventory to the hungry customers? They can if they want but in most buffets, that’s not the main goal. Similarly, in most cases, it’s not the main intention for the song artist to create content for FFR that calls for dump files. There are definitely exceptions to this rule (songs that are chaotic in nature like RATO) which would be fine stepped as dumps because it is T11’s intention to create that sort of chaotic content (which can be easily gauged from the music).

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

[WirryWoo]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

I also agree with this. I think the biggest question marks here would be, how would skill ratings and ranks be accessed here? Either we’d need to make multiple ratings (which would naturally make the ratings associated with dumps the most official due to how nowadays, most people in the community care about a high division player’s performance on dumps who are also the vocal minority) or we officialize one (where there will be many disagreements within the vocal minority of the community, which we hardly ever reach any actionable conclusions from any conversation to be had). I know someone’s not going to be happy with this idea haha.

But this currently doesn’t need an answer now as I’m starting to digress from the initial conversation. Just some food for thought.

[M0nkeyz]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

I agree with this, but it doesn't have to be in its own category a [D] or [Dump] tag is enough imo.