Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

It seems people are misinterpreting what i’m saying, as if I am implying that dumpfiles = TERRIBLE and shouldn’t have any place.

I think there could be a separate place/section for dumps to allow for people to go wild.

The problem I have is just adding dumps to the game like any other chart. It ruins the charting integrity FFR has had for years.

I don't think you've properly demonstrated how it ruins anything because they are, in fact, just like any other chart in game. Many files in FFR use different philosophies on how to approach patterning already- the diversity of approach is already there, this specific classification just hasn't been explored quite as much as other approaches.

Your entire argument appears to be based on an assertion that dump charting is inherently a lower class of file than a literally interpreted take on a file and until you can go to show that, I don't believe your assertions hold any serious merit.

As stated previously by another poster- if dumps are truly a lesser form of chart, you should have no problems showing how a file like Rainshower is flawed. Perhaps doing so would give you a bit more ground to stand on.

[klimtkiller]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I don't think you've properly demonstrated how it ruins anything because they are, in fact, just like any other chart in game. Many files in FFR use different philosophies on how to approach patterning already- the diversity of approach is already there, this specific classification just hasn't been explored quite as much as other approaches.

Your entire argument appears to be based on an assertion that dump charting is inherently a lower class of file than a literally interpreted take on a file and until you can go to show that, I don't believe your assertions hold any serious merit.

As stated previously by another poster- if dumps are truly a lesser form of chart, you should have no problems showing how a file like Rainshower is flawed. Perhaps doing so would give you a bit more ground to stand on.

I don’t know what rainshower is.

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

[loftyb]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

“ as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.”

You’re so close, buddy — just a few more thoughts and you’re there

[Wind0ze]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

as someone that works in the laxative business it is in my best interest that people can't make dumps

[riktoi]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

Quite a big amount of dumps are easy to understand if you care to look at them. It's not any different from looking at a "technically" accurate chart. This has been pointed out in this thread multiple times.

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

Is that a bad thing? Fullerene Shift is in no way an official release, and hence does not have to meet standards. You can judge it however you like, but ultimately it will fall to deaf ears. The least you can do is try to understand why it is charted that way.

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

Good. Searching for songs just to fit an arbitrary criteria of chartability takes an immense amount of time! Just being able to pick a song you like and dumping it feels great. It's purely a plus that a bigger variety of music can be (and will be) charted this way, even if you personally didn't like it. After all, nothing stops you from continuing your own way.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I don’t know what rainshower is.

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

Well. you didn't do what I asked you to do and you ultimately haven't made any new points of substance. Rainshower is a dump file that is currently in FFR that is largely agreed to be a very good execution of dump-ing principles in a chart. This is the kind of file that you're currently standing in opposition of and if you wish to convince people that dumps are of a lower class, demonstrating why this file should not be accepted into FFR's main catalog of files is a pretty good first step to gaining any ground in this debate. Image Material from fullerenshift is irrelevant because its just some random file in some random pack that is, currently, not in contention to be released on FFR.

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files shouldn't be in the main song list. The identity of having well synced high quality files can still be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. vROFL very much falls into the category of "meme file" and not a serious attempt at a well made dump file. I would hope anything like vrofl submitted to the dump batch would be rejected pretty quickly and firmly.

So in what way can one draw parallels to osu!mania here or say that FFR would be evolving backwards?

[hi19hi19]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files shouldn't be in the main song list. The identity of having well synced high quality files can still be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. vROFL very much falls into the category of "meme file" and not a serious attempt at a well made dump file. I would hope anything like vrofl submitted to the dump batch would be rejected pretty quickly and firmly.

So in what way can one draw parallels to osu!mania here or say that FFR would be evolving backwards?

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

Not being synced to peaks on a waveform, sure. But, and this is the beauty of using ghost notes within the context of a dump, you're not always playing a game of "put the arrows on the waveform" in the first place. This doesnt exclude it from being synced properly provided that the arrows that are matched to distinct sounds in the song are still correctly timed and the ghost notes are still spaced coherently relative to what is being charted to the literal interpretation of the music.

for example, if you chart the sustain of a specific sound as a group of 3 24th notes starting at the peak of that sound, you can still have consistent sync in your file, despite only one of those 3 notes matching to a distinct peak on a waveform. As long as the ghost notes arent hanging out in the middle of nowhere with no direct relation to the actual structure, theres nothing unsynced about a well made dump.

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

A lot to respond to. I'll try to sum up some thoughts.

This batch was created in part as a response to some recent trends in FFR submissions. Some folks have been pushing the boundaries of "tech" charts by including more factors that we would normally expect in dump charts. Judges have increasingly been fine with the minor use of such things.

Rainshower is among the most distinctly dump-focused file that has been released in FFR. When it was discussed in judge chat, the sentiment was very much "this is just an extension of the current submission trends" as well as being a well made file overall. It appears the playerbase is enjoying it as well, from the discussion in the SOTW and Discord.

In fact, Rainshower represents just one type of file that I'd expect to see actually submitted to this batch. FFR is very much just scratching the surface of what can be done with more "expressiveness" that dumps allow. This batch just "rips the band-aid off" by more openly allowing a dump approach to be considered valid.

That does not mean FFR is in danger of sacrificing it's traditional quality file roots. Dumps are no longer "just throw arrows anywhere," some of them have just as much, if not more explicit structure and such as "tech" files, and can be really fun. We're still expecting musical relevance for pattern/quantization/etc. choices and I wouldn't anticipate that going away for this batch or any other dump file sent in the future. Frankly this argument saddens me, it shows a lack of faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.



Side note that I agree with lofty that dumps have an unfortunate name, and indeed have outgrown that name. It's just what we're going with for now until the community comes up with a new colloquialism.

I also agree that dumps should be included in the main song list and don't need any particular designation/disclaimer. This one might become a staff discussion and decision so I won't elaborate much further.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Tru, a lot of what you said seems to be the argument in favor of the batch, and I've sort of just accepted that this is where FFR is going even though I don't like it.
Before I bow out though let me make one thing clear:

Frankly this argument saddens me, it shows a lack of faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'd of course want to know why. FFR staff in general is pretty flexible/open to ideas. Can dm me to not derail the thread if you want.

[gold stinger]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Side note that I agree with lofty that dumps have an unfortunate name, and indeed have outgrown that name. It's just what we're going with for now until the community comes up with a new colloquialism.

I personally call them 'Vantablacks' or such patterning 'Vantablacking', because it was one of the first songs in-game to actively take a stance on such patterning (alongside Naruto's Ninja Way), and I specifically had a stake on the judgment and seeing that song go in-game.

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Freeform scrollies.

[Wiosna]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I initially didn't answer that question of "shifting away from the identity of high-quality files" because I felt it came from a flawed premise to begin with. I think "well-synced" is true because it's more objective, but I don't agree with the judging system necessarily being a good assessment of "quality" -- certainly not one that picks out "high-quality" ones at least. High-quality files will pass the system, but not all files in the system are high-quality blah blah. Internal structural consistency is not a sufficient requirement for a file to be of high-quality. I don't blame judges for this either, of course (I was a judge myself), I think it's one of the easiest and least controversial ways of assessing a file, but there is this rift between how judges perceive files, how stepartists perceive files, and how players perceive files with that approach.

There's definitely some truth behind the FFR stepping community having a certain identity though -- the boundaries set by the FFR judge team has caused the stepping community on FFR to create files in specific directions, and I think it's most pronounced in the highest echelons of the game. It has by far the highest concentration of really technical hard files out of any rhythm game that I know, and I find that to be extremely fascinating. There are also other things like players having quite different file palettes than other communities, but I don't have too many things concrete about it. I've always wanted to do some ethnographic analysis on how specific charting trends shape rhythm game communities, though, so my thoughts on this will change over time.

I can contrast this to osu!mania, where off-the-walls technical (think even T11) files are just so much more rare. I think there are multiple reasons for this beyond "dumps aren't allowed in the official part of our games" (which isn't even true anymore), but I do believe that that's a small contributor. So I do think that something on FFR would be lost somewhat with FFR accepting dumpy (not dumps) files, I just don't think that "high-quality" should be a descriptor for it. Technical slant maybe, and by then, the question of whether that identity should change becomes much easier to contend with. I know that you're looking for a positive argument towards allowing dumps/dumpy elements, but I'm just explaining my reasons for giving a "why not" reason at the start.

I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

I think this is just rude tbh. osu!mania's charting community is imo pretty dire for multiple reasons and I don't think FFR is anywhere near that point. I won't say that osu!mania is necessarily filled with derivative work, but I think the osu!mania scene is trying to find its own identity and the game being a safe haven for dumps is misguided. I also think that FFR, even when you look strictly at the dumps that people in this community have made, are much closer to tech files with ghost note elements, so think closer to Rainshower than... the archetypal dump file that you can think of, really.

I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating.

I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping.

And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m).

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.

I (think I) know what you're trying to say here with dump files not being on sync by definition -- but I think it's presumptuous to say that just because a dump file isn't synced in the conventional sense (notes placed to attacks and only attacks) doesn't mean that it should be a file in-game. Most dumps have notes to peaks rather than strictly attacks, which again, does have a notably different feeling of gameplay (a misuse of this can lead to a file being very loose and tenuous to play through) and is a bit dicier to judge than more literal files, but I find it hard-pressed to think about whether that's necessarily a thing that should exclude a style from the game -- even ones that were executed very well. It seems like a trade-off thing that judges have to consider, which I think is manageable, though I think that there will be pitfalls in judging here and there all the same that judges will face. In that sense, I definitely see the lack of faith in maintaining judge standards, because it does require additional criteria for assessment.

I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point.