Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

i love yellowcard and blink 182

omg i need a 109 diff dump of all the small things

[Wiosna]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I do want to give my input on what FFR's identity is to me and how dumps would affect that from a stepper's perspective as well. My post is awfully long so I'll just spoiler it into pieces. Given my experience across multiple 4K VSRGs, I ultimately feel that people saying that FFR's identity being a safe haven for "high-quality non-dumps" is selling FFR as a game really short and that there are many different things that FFR brings from other 4K VSRGs. Moderators can move this into a separate thread because it's an awful lot of text that could be its own discussion.

A small background: While I made my first FFR account about 12 years ago and was active in this community from 2010-2015, I was never in touch with the stepping community until about late 2019 to early 2020. Most of my reputation (from 2015 to today) as a stepper came from my presence and contributions in other communities -- primarily osu!mania and, to a smaller extent, Etterna/StepMania -- so I do consider myself to be an initial "outsider" or non-native in the FFR stepping community.

When I rejoined the FFR community with the intent of sending files, there were multiple things that stood out to me from VSRGs. I can summarise them into three main factors: a lack of hold mechanic, a different playing meta, and existing drastically different stepping philosophies from other rhythm games.

1. Lack of hold mechanic

I think the main aspect of FFR stepping that stood out to me was the lack of a hold mechanic. The degree to which more contemporary Etterna files and osu!mania maps use holds (even with the latter having release timing) is really substantial and I don't think FFR steppers, whether it'd be for visual emphasis or to add another layer of mechanical challenge into the chart. I don't think insular FFR steppers realise just how heavily holds are being used outside of their circle -- the lack of holds is in itself a distinctive part of FFR's identity. And I know many players from osu!mania actually consider this a plus, too.

And I consider the lack of holds to be a constraint that breeds a lot of creativity as well. When I was transitioning from EO/o!m to FFR, a lot of my files had many holds, and just removing the holds made those files feel naked or incomplete. Using colour theory can bring you so far because, frankly, holds and white notes are not the same thing. And with fewer and fewer players using snap colours in gameplay (because more players from other games are coming to FFR), even colour theory would be lost in translation over time. Going through FFR files and understanding the constraints of the game's mechanics forced me to reshape the way I convey a song to players. I nowadays focus far more on pattern "flow", how patterns feel to play kinaesthetically (what kind of strain does this pattern cause? how much? etc.), and how to emphasise musical motifs through kinaesthetic means.

I attribute this paradigm shift in my stepping greatly to the constraints put onto FFR files and how I can work around them. While most of my output isn't made for FFR specifically, I still shaped my approach around this constraint on FFR, and I'm more than grateful for FFR inadvertently giving me a new lens for how to approach stepping. It's also for this reason that I would never want a hold mechanic for FFR and why I really empathise with hi19 when he alluded to (reasonable) stepping constraints breeding creativity. It's the main thing that really makes it stand out from other rhythm games, in my opinion, and its consequences on the stepping meta have been beautiful to see.

2. Different gameplay meta

For me, the general "meta" of playing any game is extremely important when submitting content to any community-based game. FFR, in particular, lends itself to a completionist meta despite having a skill rating system in-game. FFR has a limited (albeit large) pool of files, and the most commonly accepted goal on an individual file is reasonably achievable -- a AAA grade. Even the skill rating system is based more on high SDGs, which are, in the grand scheme of things, close to a perfect score. There is a rate function and people use it, but the primary way of playing FFR is through achieving a (near-)perfect score on 1.0x and only that. The average rank system and AAA/FC/TP bars also facilitate this.

This is something that also distinguishes FFR from other VSRGs. There is no clear end goal for Etterna charts. Got a AAA on 1.0? Try it on 1.1+ for some percentage, maybe a AA. Or maybe go for a score with much better accuracy -- but what percentage? 100% scores are virtually unachievable now. Not to mention the MSD system compels players to attain 91-97% Wife3 scores instead, far from a AAA. While osu!mania does have a curated (Ranked) section of the game that forces people to play on 1.0x rate, the ranked section is not taken very seriously. The gameplay meta as well focuses on attaining 96%-98% scores (very far from AAAs) rather than near-perfect scores (SS-ranks). FFR having a much clearer score range to attain scores primarily on 1.0 leads to forming manifestly different playing habits and some interesting questions for FFR steppers as well.

The tendency to think of FFR as more of a completionist game makes me think about the potential "value" of each file that I submit would bring. What would make my submission, if it were to get accepted, stand out from the other files that are already present in-game? In other words, is my file redundant? This means more to me than in osu!mania, where curation happens much more frequently and there is negligible incentive to play through everything ranked. So I end up having to be more cognizant about what I send by thinking about what would be a valuable submission to FFR. I can always submit a chart I think is good and enjoyable, of course, but I think finding a way to make my files stand out in some way is just as important from the pack if not more. There are also other things like how steppers can get away with more technical accuracy (e.g. using a 48th gallop + 16th rather than a 32nd burst) because the established goal for FFR is a AAA (which isn't awfully tight) rather than a quad or really good accuracy, but this is a smaller thing but still a factor nonetheless.

The fact that charts are primarily played on 1.0 also affects the value of certain charts -- specifically ones in which its auxiliary appeal lies in how useful it is for improving specific skills (e.g. jumpstream ability, stream ability, chordjack ability, etc.). This is a pretty big deal because some charts that would be played and enjoyed very heavily on osu!mania and Etterna may not have anywhere the same degree of appeal on FFR.

A quick example would be my Sharpnel JS files in my Sharpnel Instrumentality Project pack made last year; they average about 300 scores on Etterna and get about 4,000 plays on average on osu!mania despite not being Ranked or Loved (both ways of curating maps), both of which are extremely high values for their respective games given their circumstances. These high playcounts are primarily because of how osu!mania/Etterna are played and the presence of rates. It wouldn't have anywhere as much appeal on FFR, even if FFR does have a rate mechanic, because it's just not the main way people play FFR. It's also for these aforementioned reasons that I regret submitting too many of my Sharpnel files to FFR (Moonearth and Shind Bad specifically), but it's too late for that now. But these are factors that I feel I should consider when it comes to "stepping for FFR", and these factors definitely constitute part of FFR's identity to me.

3. Existing stepping meta and philosophies in the community

The existing stepping meta is, to me, an identity in itself. I think there has already been a lot of discussion about just technically focused FFR's catalogue is -- so I won't pry into it further. But the existing catalogue does give some ideas on how to approach stepping and the type of music that can be stepped for FFR. But in addition to the existing catalogue, the catalogue is still expanding. There are so many people producing enjoyable files of this nature (Pizza, M0nkeyz, Deamerai, DarkZtar, Tru, etc.), most of them still active is a genuinely great thing for both FFR and VSRGs in general imo. Would the inclusion of dumps make them tilt towards a different style? Perhaps, but based on my observations of how communities and charters grow, their origins/roots will still shine through even if they go through some gradual changes.

Another thing about the stepping meta that I feel is overlooked is just the existing philosophy of additive layering that is much much less prevalent in 4K VSRGs today -- layering through the quantity of sounds happening at a specific time rather than the textures or qualities of sounds. I believe bmah is making a thread about this very soon so I won't go too deeply into this, but from my experience, understanding stepping from this perspective was extremely eye-opening for me.

And the existence of multiple ways of even something as fundamental as layering is important -- any layering approach that isn't in vogue that's still logical and appropriate will compel both charters and players to turn their heads and think about what's exactly going on in the chart. Most charters (even dump charters) do make an attempt to make sure that the chart communicates the details present in a song of course, but I think there's an additional flavour necessary to get players to focus more intimately on the song's details. And I have deep respect for many people in the FFR community who try to subvert players' expectations of how charts should go in one way or another. FFR files often having this less popular approach to layering today is both fascinating and educational to me. I do think that additive layering has been getting neglected a little bit by some judges based on what I've seen, but that's an issue less with having dumps in-game and more of a failing on the judges' side.

The two factors about the existing stepping meta on FFR will obviously affect the palate of FFR players too. Because of this combination of gameplay meta and existing catalogue, I found that the typical FFR veteran's palate is quite different from the average strong osu!mania/Etterna player. There will naturally be charts with cross-community appeal (I've seen a lot of people on both FFR and osu!mania really like Writing on the Walls), but a chart like jh05013's The Lady Is A Trump (that is quite liked by multiple D7 players and some D6 players based on a quick survey I did), I'm not sure will have the same appeal for osu!mania players around the same skill level. Trying to figure out what exactly makes players from a community really like something is one of the most interesting things to me as a stepper, and having various different communities to appeal to is naturally great, because I want to be the best stepper that I can be.

Some closing thoughts:

All of this is obviously just my perspective, and I don't expect every stepper from multiple different rhythm games to share the same sentiments -- my goal here isn't to tell people that everyone will think that FFR has an established identity. But to me, as someone who has been wandering through one rhythm game after another for at least 12 years, FFR has a very clear identity, even if it isn't necessarily felt as if it did. With the presence of dumps in the game, I'm not quite sure how much FFR's identity will change from my perspective. The first factor is obviously unaffected by the inclusion of dumps (you don't need holds for dumps), and I don't expect dumps to change how the game is being played either, so the second factor is unchanged too.

Maybe the third factor will change quite a bit. I understand hi19's concern (?) of allowing dumps in-game stilting creativity in one way. I find that the most joy that I get from playing through files is less from playing through good files, but from discovering a file that breaks conventional moulds of a good file that is still enjoyable and communicates the details of the song well. It's not that good files don't have merit, of course, but it's something that motivates me further as a stepper to keep going because it's an affirmation that there is still stuff out there to explore.

Dumps from the FFR community, while will likely have some unique edge to them, will probably come off as less unique than some of the more cutting-edge charts that FFR has to offer. I think that's a very fair concern and I think the strongest defence for not having dumps in-game. A counterargument is that the use of ghost notes in themselves I think can lead to alternative avenues of creativity that maybe FFR regulars can exploit too. It's something that I'd like to see in the future, but I'm not quite optimistic about it. I think FFR will lose some of its unique identity through accepting dumps, but I don't expect it to be something that would cause FFR to be Just Another VSRG In The Abyss of 4-Column Keysmash Simulators.

The concern of the inclusion of dumps leading to people making charts that are awfully overemphasised even to a calm song is also fair, and I don't think internal consistency and musical relevance are sufficient factors to mitigate this, based on my experiences in the back-end of the osu!mania ranked section. A quick example would be Ideal Ratio [Oni] but with 48th bursts/64th bursts rather than the 32nds-40ths that it has now. Still logically consistent and musically relevant, but a much less enjoyable experience for most players because the exaggerated rhythms feel much more exaggerated than the average wubstep chart. I've volunteered as a bit of a consultant for the dump batch to see if there's anything that can be done in that respect, but striking a balance between artistic expression and egregious overexaggeration is very difficult, especially with FFR treading into unmapped territory. In this sense I think a lack of trust in judges is very valid.

I'm also speaking from solely an artistic perspective. I think there are valid concerns about how more casual players (or just <D5 players) aren't being accommodated for (or rather, D6++ players are being accommodated for disproportionately more than those players through the acceptance of dumps and dump batches), and that the easy batch is likely insufficient given the prevalence of lower-level players and that there hasn't been any progress in fostering among many steppers a need to provide content for newer players. But I don't think axing the dump batch or not allowing dumps would resolve much -- the issue at hand is symptomatic of a much larger concern at hand.

All in all, I just find the concern of FFR's identity being challenged and potentially homogenised to be valid, but I think the concern is excessive. There are way more things that make FFR stand out than just a catalogue of non-dumps. The very first reason at least, the lack of a hold mechanic, is something that stood out to me as a player and stepper much more than a lack of dumps. And it's something that the FFR community has worked around and developed theories for over at least two decades. And the completionist meta, manifestly different score goal from other VSRGs, existing catalogue of files and philosophies that are so different from other VSRGs, and a different audience are all factors that differentiate FFR from its contemporaries like Etterna and osu!mania. Having dumps won't change those as much as I think they would, especially with tight control and (hopefully) a critical lens as to what kind of dumps FFR would like to accept in the future.

I don't expect anyone to read this in full, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Since people are talking about FFR not having an identity, I feel that it's worth sharing how I feel about its stepping community and how different it is from other rhythm games I've been in.

[_choof]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

But if a song is intended to be rhythmically simple, yet we are creating a well crafted dump just to improve song choice variety for the higher skilled players, wouldn't that be blatantly obvious to see how certain sounds are unnecessarily stepped as a blurb of arrows?

you can pretty easily explain this as a chart creator to an artist by just telling them you're charting something that's not rhythm. take a crash cymbal. the standard charting meta would necessarily dictate that this be charted with a jump, possibly a hand. with ffr you don't have the option to use a hold and have it end at the same time the sound does, so in nearly every case, this would just be jump/hand followed by play time silence. put a particularly interesting bit of reverb on the crash cymbal's tail and the standard charting meta would still want the same jump/hand, even though the sound itself is doing something different.
and honestly with this example, if you told an artist you were charting reverb it'd probably blow their mind lmao

By creating these well crafted dumps, are we really abstracting the feel of music appropriately or are we only just doing this to cater the vocal high division playerbase? I personally believe it's the latter.

"well crafted" in bold because that is key. if it's a well crafted chart, then you can easily do the former. if it's made just for the sake of getting a 100+ chart out of some pop music then yeah it's the latter.
while yes, an abstract chart is going to probably be harder overall than a technical chart for the same song, it doesn't always have to be that much harder, and you can still incorporate abstract stuff in a technical chart as well (think of it as trading technicality for playability). abstraction will probably end up making more and more sense the better and better a player becomes.

tl;dr yes casuals don't listen to breakcore...but why not let FFR be an avenue to promote new music. Get that curiosity of new genres of music going through the medium of a fun game.

allowing abstract charts wouldn't dissuade this at all lol this is somewhat of a moot point, possibly working better in the argument for them

I'm still concerned about content and innovations for...well...everyone else? It circles back to what I mentioned earlier about organic growth and not only looking towards very seasoned players that are already familiar with rhythm games.

the innovations for everyone else are going to need to come from additional mechanics in the game itself. modes with higher keycounts (implement 6k and I will make so many charts for this game again), mines, holds, rolls (but call em something more intuitive), etc.
also run more easy song batches and incentivize the seasoned players to make more easy charts. seasoned players want to make stuff around the difficulties they're most comfy with.

[loftyb]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Lack of a hold mechanic alone should get steppers in this game to understand that “tech dumps” or “abstract” files can and will be fun and innovative when applied to the ffr engine.

Some of you oldheads literally don’t get how tech dumps are charted.

[sff_writer_dan]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Yeah when I made the comparison to legacy files, I thought it would be pretty clear that it was a joke, just like taking the "dumps means the steps don't map directly onto distinct sounds" concept and applying it, for humour, to legacy files being incredibly out of sync.

It definitely is the case that there are probably people here opposing dumps because the name evokes files like vROFL where you just "dump" notes into a file, so I think it might be worth the effort to find a better name that evokes what people want, but I also don't think 'abstract' gets you there either. There's definitely still a direct connection between the music and the steps, as I understand it, you're just taking liberties to replace what might be a single quarter note with an 8-note roll when the song has a buzz. It's still starting and stopping to the music, it's just a more liberal interpretation of a pattern inside the note yeah?

I think there's a lot of potential in being able to take more downtempo stuff and make it more technically difficult and a higher difficulty with 'dumps' being allowed, not just songs that are >100

Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way 'dump' is meant to be used here could easily cover stuff like the opening buzz tones in Dendrite which are nothing in the v1, and single notes in the v2, being like bursts or rolls instead which would make it "a dump" technically but still be as low as 50 or 60 depending on what else is done in there.

[Lights]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Yeah when I made the comparison to legacy files, I thought it would be pretty clear that it was a joke, just like taking the "dumps means the steps don't map directly onto distinct sounds" concept and applying it, for humour, to legacy files being incredibly out of sync.

It definitely is the case that there are probably people here opposing dumps because the name evokes files like vROFL where you just "dump" notes into a file, so I think it might be worth the effort to find a better name that evokes what people want, but I also don't think 'abstract' gets you there either. There's definitely still a direct connection between the music and the steps, as I understand it, you're just taking liberties to replace what might be a single quarter note with an 8-note roll when the song has a buzz. It's still starting and stopping to the music, it's just a more liberal interpretation of a pattern inside the note yeah?

I think there's a lot of potential in being able to take more downtempo stuff and make it more technically difficult and a higher difficulty with 'dumps' being allowed, not just songs that are >100

Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way 'dump' is meant to be used here could easily cover stuff like the opening buzz tones in Dendrite which are nothing in the v1, and single notes in the v2, being like bursts or rolls instead which would make it "a dump" technically but still be as low as 50 or 60 depending on what else is done in there.

Theres a lot of ways dumping can be applied, not even necessarily being limited to ghost notes- but even focusing on the presence of ghost notes, its still very possible to dump certain sounds and end up with a lower difficulty file. I could see going down into the 30s and 40s being viable if enough care was given towards doing so, though this would be more exceptional than the norm. That said, I don't think theres going to be any dumped content for D1 players in the near future as the added note density and quick rhythms introduced would kinda necessarily bump it up at least into the d2 range. Though i'd love to be proven wrong here.

[Xtreme2252]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8rNRmmosmA

[sff_writer_dan]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Theres a lot of ways dumping can be applied, not even necessarily being limited to ghost notes- but even focusing on the presence of ghost notes, its still very possible to dump certain sounds and end up with a lower difficulty file. I could see going down into the 30s and 40s being viable if enough care was given towards doing so, though this would be more exceptional than the norm. That said, I don't think theres going to be any dumped content for D1 players in the near future as the added note density and quick rhythms introduced would kinda necessarily bump it up at least into the d2 range. Though i'd love to be proven wrong here.

Yeah this is why I think 'dump' is the wrong word for this, and is probably contributing to the people opposing the idea of including this as a viable stepping strategy under the assumption that it means "Nonsense 115 difficulty noiz"

I absolutely agree that plenty of stuff in the 30s and 40s could be what is technically a dump by intentional, creative and vibe appropriate "overstepping" of more downtempo songs that include sounds that lend themselves to converting a note or jump into a short burst etc.

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

Submissions close at midnight server time tonight! (less than 6 hours from this post)

Thank you for all your submissions to the dump batch!

[XelNya]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

If I didn't have a syncing issue I'd have subbed to this x.x

[ToonE156]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

I would've submitted if we had F Rabbeat permissions

[Tru]

Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread

The dump batch is now in active judgment, until approximately the end of November.

Judging will work similar to the Ooga Booga Batch earlier this year where a group of people will post their comments and an Accept/Fixes Required/Reject rating directly on each file's submission page.

The current review group is: Myself, Pizza69, M0nkeyz, Mipha, Oppiie, Wiosna and lofty

We're aiming for each post to have at least 1-2 sentences to justify each person's reasoning rather than only giving a simple Accept/Reject rating. Files that have not reached a clear consensus of Accept/Reject by the end of November will be given a more detailed/thorough review.