God.

[KH Luxord]

Re: God.

God is the holder of all power in our lives. He gave us our free will. If you blame him for free will, then you probably are not grateful for him letting us do what we want.

[devonin]

Re: God.

God is not the holder of any power in our lives, that is, in fact exactly the point.

[tobi14]

Re: God.

God is the holder of all power in our lives. He gave us our free will. If you blame him for free will, then you probably are not grateful for him letting us do what we want.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if god held all the power in our lives, wouldn't that mean we DON'T have free will?

[Coolgamer]

Re: God.

And, judging by your almost nonexistent knowledge of Christianity, you haven't even given God one of those.



Do tell how God "attacks" homosexuals.

Genesis 19.
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Or any of these.



Then tell me (since you claim to have taken a "true rational look" at God and what he stands for), why your extensive (but I'll accept a little more than minimal) scriptural knowledge suggests that God was some sort of murderer in this situation, and didn't actually forgive our sins.

God did it for the lulz, mirite?

See what I'm doing, here? I'm giving a "true rational look" at your statements. Your claims are wholly fabricated and devoid of critical thought.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

I'm tired. I'll post a detailed explanation of my religious insights later. Right now enjoy some bible passages.

Leviticus (12:1-5) Women are dirty and sinful after childbirth, so God prescribes rituals for their purification. If a boy is born, the mother is unclean for 7 days and must be purified for 33 days; if a girl is born, the mother is unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. This is because, in the eyes of God, girls are twice as dirty as boys.

It's okay to beat your slaves; even if they die you won't be punished, just as long as they survive a day or two after the beating (see Ex.21:20-21). But avoid excessive damage to their eyes or teeth. Otherwise you may have to set them free. Oh well, it's a heck of a lot better than what would happen to you if you did it to a non-slave. (See verses 21:24-25)

If a thief is caught and is too poor to make a complete restitution, then he is to be sold to pay for his theft.

If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Ex.22:2-3

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. <- Genocide.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18 <-- Condoned rape and genocide.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:15

For Rape Victims who don't cry out loudly enough

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Lev.21:17-23
Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

[Coolgamer]

Re: God.

God creates humans. God gives them free will. To then blame God for the inappropriate use of that free will is absurd.

And most of those actions I gave examples of were promoted or "committed" by God. King James also edited the Bible to suit his own need to control the populace.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: God.

Dude, use quote tags in your posts; I was having trouble swimming through that wall of text and finding which words were yours and where your words stopped.

Genesis 19.
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Or any of these.

Here he's declaring homosexual acts to be a sin, not attacking homosexuals by any stretch of the imagination.

Lots of Old Testament quotes

Wait a minute, are you really characterizing Christianity by laws that they were never intended to follow? The Mosaic law was for the Jews alone. Now, if you're not specifically targeting Christianity, then I'm afraid I don't know enough about Judaism to properly explain their Law.

What I do know is that from a Christian perspective, not one of those things you listed is condoned by God.

As for quotes like this:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Context is your friend.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Re: God.

And most of those actions I gave examples of were promoted or "committed" by God. King James also edited the Bible to suit his own need to control the populace.

In order for those acts to be promoted by God, you'll have to provide me proof that God directly -told- the people who carried out those wars that they were to do so.

What you said was:

I believe in a god that has been the indirect cause of countless wars and deaths, and whose supporters feel they have the right to force everyone to bend to his rules.

Where to begin...

Indirect Cause is not the phrase you want to use. You mean "Used as a justification for" and as any reasonable christian will tell you, anyone who has "used christianity as a justification for killing" seems to have missed the big four words engraved on a block of stone that say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The supporters who feel that the doctrine gives them the right to force other people to "bend to the rules" are simply bad christians who don't understand the doctrines at all. God gives man free will. If you elect to use that free will to try and force other people to do something, you are certainly able to do that, but just because someone -says- "I'm allowed by God to do this" doesn't mean they are.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: God.

God is not the holder of any power in our lives, that is, in fact exactly the point.

Then God is not All Powerful

[Coolgamer]

Re: God.

In order for those acts to be promoted by God, you'll have to provide me proof that God directly -told- the people who carried out those wars that they were to do so.

What you said was:
Where to begin...

Indirect Cause is not the phrase you want to use. You mean "Used as a justification for" and as any reasonable christian will tell you, anyone who has "used christianity as a justification for killing" seems to have missed the big four words engraved on a block of stone that say "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The supporters who feel that the doctrine gives them the right to force other people to "bend to the rules" are simply bad christians who don't understand the doctrines at all. God gives man free will. If you elect to use that free will to try and force other people to do something, you are certainly able to do that, but just because someone -says- "I'm allowed by God to do this" doesn't mean they are.

Your own Holy Book says that all of this was done ON GOD'S ORDERS. Moses himself said god ordered a genocide that permitted him to kill a whole town and rape the virgins inside. And yet people claim they can't understand the Middle-East, their Holy Wars, and why they kill over religion. Christianity and Catholicism both have promoted, depending on the times, rape, murder, incest, killing for conquest, capital punishment, and a general lack of free will. According to the bible, if you grow up in, say, Japan, and never learn of Jesus or the "true god", you are still condemned to hell.

All babies that were not baptized were declared to be hell bound until a decree was made by the pope decades ago that they merely entered purgatory for a waiting period.

I have studied the Bible, and to a lesser extent the Koran and Torah. I feel safe in saying that all were man-made inventions designed to control and suppress.

[devonin]

Re: God.

Then God is not all powerful

Nope, sure isn't. And how anybody could consider that an all-powerful God was in any way compatible with a free willed humanity is beyond me.

Christianity and Catholicism both have promoted, depending on the times, rape, murder, incest, killing for conquest, capital punishment, and a general lack of free will.

Please prove that simply because the church has promoted these things, that God promotes these things, bearing in mind the concept of a free-willed humanity.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: God.

Nope, sure isn't. And how anybody could consider that an all-powerful God was in any way compatible with a free willed humanity is beyond me.

Well, theism traditionally invokes the bible, and the bible is very clear on God's omnipotence. Because of that theists usually try to avoid unorthodox solutions to the problem of evil because they're a subset of unpopular solutions to the problem of evil.

Of course the unpopular solutions are also often the least problematic. For example, denying the existence of evil.

[devonin]

Re: God.

the bible is very clear on God's omnipotence

Being someone who isn't forced to labour under the absurd hypothesis that the Bible is 100% complete and utter factual truth, I'm perfectly able to reconcile the idea that on this count the bible is simply mistaken.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: God.

Well, you've just alienated yourself from a very large number of theists then. Claiming the Bible is misread or misinterpreted is one thing, and can usually be done without arousing ire, but outright claiming that it's wrong? If the Bible isn't an object of divine perfection, who's to say how much of it is true at all? Why use it as evidence of anything in this case?

[devonin]

Re: God.

Well, you've just alienated yourself from a very large number of theists then.

being the kind of theist that is a deist alienated me from a very large number of theists well before I said any of this. I think I can cope.

Claiming the Bible is misread or misinterpreted is one thing, and can usually be done without arousing ire, but outright claiming that it's wrong?

Claiming that a book written by humans, translated by humans, interpreted by humans, and read by humans is prone to the same degree of fallibility as humans seems to me to be the only logical course of thought. I'm sorry to those who are happy to forget how the telephone game works if they have an issue.

If the Bible isn't an object of divine perfection, who's to say how much of it is true at all?

Historians, thelogians, geologists, astronomers, they've all pointed out many ways in which the bible is correct, describes historical events, and valid scientific phenomena. I just think it incredibly naive and foolish to assume that simply because some of it is correct, it all is. Especially when the leading proof of its correctness is that it itself states its correctness.

Why use it as evidence of anything in this case?

I only use the bible as evidence of the beliefs of christians, which are just as allowed to be incorrect as the beliefs of anyone else. You will only ever find me presenting accounts in the bible as fact if a) They have been corroborated by other evidence sufficient to me to warrant presenting them that way or b) I'm playing devil's advocate.

[Coolgamer]

Re: God.

Nope, sure isn't. And how anybody could consider that an all-powerful God was in any way compatible with a free willed humanity is beyond me.

Please prove that simply because the church has promoted these things, that God promotes these things, bearing in mind the concept of a free-willed humanity.

If the Bible is the word of God, then when the Bible claims God commanded acts of rape, murder, genocide, etc., then those things were gods will. It says it quite plainly in the Bible that it is GOD who ordered those events I referred to.