Black Racists

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

That's basically the point I'm getting at. We have a similar problem in Canada with the way our welfare system works. It is set up in such a way that it actually creates a disincentive to ever find work. You're better off on Welfare than you would be starting from scratch with a minimum wage job, so people don't care that the system is broken and easily fixable -TO THEIR BENEFIT- because the way it is now is just good enough to make them not want to work to change it.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

Yes it can. If you know that a company has to hire you because you're black, then you won't be motivated to make any sort of attempt at furthering your education, because there's no reason to. You're being given a job as compensation for injustices suffered in the past by your ancestors. No reason to try and actually become qualified for the job; it's being given to you with no extra work required.

Heck, if I could be given a job making $100,000 a year even if I was unqualified for it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Also, there wouldn't be any reason to try and become qualified for it; it's already been given to me. And they can't fire me because that makes them seem racist.

Affirmative action is a relatively new institution. The social and educational system has been in shambles (even worse off than today for black people) for YEARS before affirmative action began to be used as a boost for those who have been oppressed by this tattered system. At the fundamental level, affirmative action does not worsen inequality, though there are bound to be abusers of it. Should the government no longer take responsibility for helping individuals economically and remove the welfare and social security systems--just because there is room for its abuse? No. The actions (or in this case inactions) of some cannot justify the negligence of many.

Granted affirmative action does effectively nothing to STOP poverty or improve education, in the same way that welfare does effectively nothing (as statistics have shown, I can provide sources if need be), but it is still important, at least in principle, for providing what little equality can be had WHILE fixing the system.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

but it is still important, at least in principle, for providing what little equality can be had WHILE fixing the system.

The problem is that the system -isn't- being fixed; people think welfare, affirmative action, and other social programs are enough. Thus, there is no motivation to fix it. Remove affirmative action and other social programs and you create the motivation to fix the problem that resulted in the creation of those social programs in the first place.

I'd rather people actually worked to fix the underlying problem while the band-aid is applied than force a solution by removing the band-aid, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

I have more to say, but I don't have time right now. I'll edit this post when I have time.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

Then the problem is clearly NOT affirmative action OR welfare, but peoples' ignorance and lack of motivation. Anyone who thinks either program is sufficient to fix the system is sorely mistaken and that is their issue. People need to be convinced of the turmoil we currently face and steps need to be taken to fix it. The first step is not to eliminate things that are helping, but rather to work toward opening everyone's eyes. Affirmative action is not at fault, only closed-minded people.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

Granted affirmative action does effectively nothing to STOP poverty or improve education, in the same way that welfare does effectively nothing (as statistics have shown, I can provide sources if need be)

The first step is not to eliminate things that are helping, but rather to work toward opening everyone's eyes. Affirmative action is not at fault, only closed-minded people.

Contradictory. First you say these programs do effectively nothing to help, and then you say we can't get rid of them because they're helping.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

It must be read in context. Affirmative action, like welfare, does not work in the big picture (as statistics can show), but ARE helpful and even necessary to help on a smaller and individual basis. To get rid of them because some people are ignorant enough to see them as the sole solution makes absolutely no sense.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

It must be read in context. Affirmative action, like welfare, does not work in the big picture (as statistics can show), but ARE helpful and even necessary to help on a smaller and individual basis. To get rid of them because some people are ignorant enough to see them as the sole solution makes absolutely no sense.

I misunderstood you then. I understood your post to mean, "Welfare and social programs do not have any net effect," whereas apparently you meant, "Welfare and social programs have an overall effect that is irrelevant."

That said, unfortunately it's not "some people" that are ignorant, it's the majority (my guess). I'm sure devonin could fill you in on the amount of people abusing Canadian welfare, but I'm going to assume that it's an alarmingly large amount, otherwise it wouldn't be worth bringing up. The point is that because the system is being abused by more people than it is genuinely helping, it serves no purpose.

Once again, I'll give more info when I have more time, but I must take my leave for now.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Black Racists

Why stop at education?

Why not have certain tax exemptions for Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Caucasians and Native Americans? Black people and Native Americans would have the lowest taxes because, you know, they got the royal fistf*ck in history. Hispanics in the mid-range. Caucasians and Asians would not receive any benefits. In fact, let's make a race tax that only applies to white people and Asians...we can add it onto the sales tax...so a black person can by a cup of coffee for 1.50, and a white person will have to pay 2.50. That should level the playing field, right? Because all we need is a bigger band-aid...not equality.

I mean, since there isn't equality among the races...because, apparently certain races need more help getting into college than others. Isn't that what affirmative action is all about?

ps. Seriously, we should apply Affirmative Action towards everyday life. Like, blacks should be allowed to buy bigger houses for the same price white people pay for smaller houses....only, not in the same neighborhood. We should have separate neighborhoods for the races. You know what? Might as well build a wall up between the neighborhoods...eliminate social interaction among the races, since all it does is cause problems.

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

I see what you did there.

That's the -implication- made by affirmative action, though that wasn't the purpose.

[perkeyone]

Re: Black Racists

i completely support freedom of speech, i really do but i also think that at some point some people should shut the hell up sometimes. rappers have influence over a large community of people (the black community), and they say its cool to do all sorts of counter-cultural things. i play all kinds of violent video games and watch violent movies but i dont try to imitate it. when people start talking, dressing, thinking, and acting the same way as the people on tv, it makes you wonder who is to blame? the viewer or the viewie? i honestly think its really foolish to do things simply because its the popular thing, especially when it is a destructive behavior. i agree that it is up to the viewer to make the choice as to whether they will follow media example.

as for affirmative action i agree that it creates a disincentive to further ones self academically and therefore is not helping the educational plight of the black community. the system creates the problem it was intended to fix and is paradoxical in nature. i understand that parents who couldnt afford to go to college will likely not have enough money to pay for their children's college. thus the cycle of not going to college is infinite unless someone puts forth extra effort. i also understand that some black families do not have the economic advantage that some white families have, but affirmative action is not the answer.

i personally think that the black community is taking longer to "assimilate" into the u.s. than some other social and racial groups have. another struggling group in my opinion is mexicans. i think it is somewhat expected since there is a language barrier and a long and tedious process to become citizens. however the black community has been around for a much longer time. you hardly ever hear about irish people or italian people stuggling to get jobs or get educations, although they may have trouble, they seem to be better adjusted.
hmmm my thoughts have run a little dry... ill read what others have to say to get my train-of-thought back.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

I see what you did there.

That's the -implication- made by affirmative action, though that wasn't the purpose.

Unfortunately, purpose means nothing when the effects are different. Say for example you cut down a tree for your family on Christmas, with the -purpose- of surprising them. You get home and find out that your entire family is allergic to the type of tree you cut down. That doesn't change the fact that everyone's mad at you for getting a tree they're allergic to, even though the -purpose- was to make them happy.

The effects supersede the purpose, but you know that. Just pointing it out for those who can't realize that.

Just because affirmative action is well-intended doesn't mean that it's a good program. As has already been stated, it hurts more than it helps.

EDIT: perkeyone, not to be rude, but could you please try to fix up that block into comprehensible sentences and paragraphs? This is CT after all; we really don't like having to read something five times to understand it, simply because it's horribly organized.

[perkeyone]

Re: Black Racists

yeah im sorry about that. my key board is a lil messed up. some of the keys i have to hit really hard for them to register.

edit: yeah i was missing quite a few periods and commas

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

yeah im sorry about that. my key board is a lil messed up. some of the keys i have to hit really hard for them to register.

edit: yeah i was missing quite a few periods and commas

Thanks for fixing it, it's much easier to read now.

Anyway, here's the basic rundown of what I and devonin have been trying to say so far (I don't guarantee that everything here is also devonin's belief, but it's what I understand from his posts)

1) Affirmative action is a well-intentioned program designed to assist minorities in adjusting to a full, respected status.

2) The method by which affirmative action does this is poor, and acts as a band-aid solution to an underlying problem, that of education.

3) Many minorities simply don't get the education that whites can get, for varying reasons. Among these are economic history, family issues, and desire for education.

4) Affirmative action tries to remedy this by making it easier for minorities to gain acceptance into jobs for which they are underqualified. The thought is that this will convince them to try and get an education, now that they have the opportunity to, since they have a secure job. The program's benefits are just enough that it gives the illusion of solving the problem, when it doesn't.

5) Contrary to the intention, this causes a disincentive to further one's education, as an education is not needed to secure a comfortable job. Affirmative action secures it for you, so there is no point to furthering your education.

6) Thus, the problem is only worsened as opposed to remedied. Affirmative action was supposed to be a way to make it easier for minorities to receive an education; unfortunately, all it does is eliminate the apparent need for one.

7) The only action certain to effect favorable education results is to eliminate affirmative action altogether. This will eliminate the disincentive and effectively force people to obtain an education, while at the risk of causing increases in poverty among minorities. While this is certainly not something anyone would wish to do, it is becoming more and more apparent that this could be the only way to create an incentive for education.

8) Unfortunately, that alone will do nothing unless education is more readily-available and appealing. If schooling can be made to be cheap or completely free, and appealing enough that a family would rather send a child there than work to help support the family, then pulling the plug on affirmative action will have much less of a negative effect, and much more of a positive effect.

9) The United States government, however, seems completely unwilling to address the issue, for whatever reason.

I believe I've stated the opinions of the anti-affirmative action group well enough. Think of this as a recap post to help organize all the different points and conclusions created and drawn from the discussion.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Black Racists

I see what you did there.

That's the -implication- made by affirmative action, though that wasn't the purpose.

I'm just saying, if our government (mine, not yours devonin) is going to acknowledge race, why not go all out? I mean, if the races truly are different despite there being no biological evidence of "race" (skin color = a single trait, wide nose, curly hair, straight hair, tall, short, stocky, thin, skull structure = all single traits among millions, meaningless.)

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

I'm just saying, if our government (mine, not yours devonin) is going to acknowledge race, why not go all out? I mean, if the races truly are different despite there being no biological evidence of "race" (skin color = a single trait, wide nose, curly hair, straight hair, tall, short, stocky, thin, skull structure = all single traits among millions, meaningless.)

I agree with you completely. ANY government institution that acknowledges race and provides any bias for or against that race simply should not exist. What I have been saying is that affirmative action in the form of giving an advantage to underpriviledged students from underfunded schools of ALL races. This can really only be beneficial and function to help individuals that really need it. It would also not harm the aid and reform of the educational system. If the government is ignorant enough to ignore all statistics and believe affirmative action is enough and thus is not motivated to fix the system, that is not a flaw with affirmative action, but with the government.

Unfortunately I can see this argument going in circles because of a central point of disagreement:
Relambrien and devonin seem to believe that affirmative action (even a race-blind form of it) is a distraction from the main issue of fixing the system, and that as it stands, there is too much room for abuse: people are less motivated to do work because they assume affirmative action will carry them.

I believe that affirmative action, while having no major benefit to the whole of fixing the educational system, is vital to providing what equality can be had to individuals. Just because it is abused (just like welfare), does that mean we should deny the right to education to those who truly need it? Why should someone (of ANY race) not be able to get an education because someone else took advantage of it? For that matter, why should welfare be gotten rid of and allow people to starve who truly need help and want to use the system correctly?