Black Racists

[00Razor00]

Re: Black Racists

Dude, whether this thread is worthy of it or not, this is Critical Thinking. Type intelligently.

You have no power in controlling me. SO why don't you get off your
little horse there.

Freedom of Speech = 1st Amendment.

Unless I plead the Fifth.

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

You have no power in controlling me. SO why don't you get off your
little horse there.

Freedom of Speech = 1st Amendment.

Unless I plead the Fifth.

You are on someone's private forum space. Someone's private forum space for which you had to apply to gain access, and for which you had to agree to follow the rules thereof.

You do not in fact have "freedom of speech" inside someone else's private domain. Synth could decree that everyone most post in rhyming iambic pentameter or face IP ban, and we would -have- to do so or face the consequences.

The rules for this sub-forum require you to post contributional text, backing up your claims with reasoning, you can't disobey those rules and then claim you are exercising your freedom of speech and thus cannot be punished.

That's the first amendment to the -US- constituion. Not the Flashflashrevolution forums Terms of Service.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

Why? The -only- way you can possibly "explain" why black people who grow up with a lack of money or a lack of education should get an extra boost simply because they are also black is to claim that "black people" are somehow intrinsically poor or stupid.

In the United States it is the case that the overwhelming majority of blacks in say...the 1850s were slaves (I'm pretty sure that an at least 80% majority of blacks in the US -before- the civil war were in fact slaves, correct me if I'm wrong there) Since then, a very large number of black families, having been freed from slavery, and given the legal rights of citizens (Yes, of course they had to further fight for equal status, right up through MLK) have done perfectly well for themselves. They've pulled themselves out of poverty, and the black community is very well represented in a large number of fields, politics, law, medicine etc etc. There are hundreds of thousands of "pulled up by my bootstraps" success stories.

That so many black people and families were capable of going from such terrible and abject discrimination and oppression to become successful, educated members of the community lends total lie to any claim that black people are somehow inherantly incapable of making that transition.

Instead of concluding that because so many black communities are poor and poorly educated, the system must still be oppressing them, so we are obligated to give them unfair extra advantages to "balance it out," perhaps one ought to conclude that since there are so many unfair advantages that are given to "balance it out" there's just no incentive for the black communities to really put the work and effort into getting there on their own like so many of their forebearers worked so hard to do.

If you know (And this is the case) that several very well respected American colleges assign the same amount of points in their application process to "Being black" as they do for "A perfect SAT score" and you know (And this is also the case) that any number of educational instituitions and places of employment are -required- to have a certain number of black employees, regardless of whether there was 1, 10 or 1000 more qualified non-black applicants, keeping this image alive, so you can keep these absurd policies alive seems like a pretty "smart" move to me.

I'm not sure you read my entire post. I was arguing that unfair advantages SHOULD NOT be given on the basis of race. In that quote i was intending to show my support of some sort of advantage and benefit given to people of poor background or lack of proper education, but not just to black people (BECAUSE I know that black people are not inherently stupid or poor). You seem to be implying that anyone can simply "pull themselves up on their bootstraps" simply does not correlate with statistics. Why are standardized test scores so dramatically low in poor districts with underfunded schools? Is it because every kid in those schools is lazy and inherently stupid? Not at all. The system has failed them, and therefore they fail the system. Affirmative action is a well-intentioned attempt to balance these inequalities, but as it stands (only giving advantages to minorities based on statistics) only perpetuates stereotypes that black people are stupid and poor and thus worsens inequality. I am still in favor of some sort of affirmative action, but only if it can be fixed to help ALL underpriviledged kids who had unfair disadvantages in their education.

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

It merely points to the far larger problem of the utterly dismal state of American elementary and highschools.

Saying "We know your school is horrible, so we'll move you ahead anyway" doesn't solve a single problem no matter -why- you personally aren't doing well. Fix the education system, and it becomes irellevant. It is just hard, time-consuming and expensive to do so, so it is easier to select the band-aid.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

I am still in favor of some sort of affirmative action, but only if it can be fixed to help ALL underpriviledged kids who had unfair disadvantages in their education.

It merely points to the far larger problem of the utterly dismal state of American elementary and highschools.

Saying "We know your school is horrible, so we'll move you ahead anyway" doesn't solve a single problem no matter -why- you personally aren't doing well. Fix the education system, and it becomes irellevant. It is just hard, time-consuming and expensive to do so, so it is easier to select the band-aid.

I agree with both of you. Provided that some social program was enacted to assist everyone who had problems with education and privilege, I would be in favor for it. But when the government decides, "Hey look black people are having problems let's just help out the poor black people, screw the poor white people because why people haven't been oppressed" I get mad. Obviously, affirmative action is well-intended, but it causes more problems than it solves.

The root of the problem, of course, is access to education. Generally, jobs that require more education pay much more than jobs that require less education (with a few exceptions). I would find a source for that, but I think we can all agree so I don't think it's necessary. Thus, in many cases, poverty can be directly attributed to a lack of education. If America made education more available (and more appealing) to everyone, much of the poverty issue would be solved in a couple of generations as the impoverished receive education, and thus better jobs.

Fixing the education system is no small feat, however. It has been discussed in another thread that the staple of the education system, grades, has issues that render it much less useful than intended. Today, your grade reflects how much you care as opposed to how much you actually know (in America, at least). The material being taught is often laughable. In my state, the only things taught are those that a standardized test will cover, because that standardized test determines whether or not you pass the grade. Take for instance, sixth grade math. I hated that year, because all throughout the year we used "arrow language" as a substitute for order of operations (I'll give an example after I finish with this). Instead of teaching the proper way to read a math problem, an obscure and inefficient system was taught. And every math problem involving algebraic operations (addition, subtraction, etc.) used that arrow language. It was horrible.

Then there's the issue of people wanting to be educated. How many students high school and below actually like going to school? Maybe 10%. This in itself presents a problem. Education is undervalued by the majority of students until you reach the upper levels of high school (this is from personal experience). Even then, there are many that just don't care. The reasons for this are relatively varied. Perhaps the students are being brought up in a household which undervalues education (which could account for people with uneducated parents being unwilling to educate themselves), perhaps their economic status forces them to work as opposed to attend school (which would account for impoverished children being uneducated). There are multiple other possible reasons as well.

What we have to do to fix the education system is clear. However, how to go about doing that successfully is the part that we can't figure out. We need to make school more accessible to those that are impoverished, and lessen the need for children to leave school just to survive. We need to make school more appealing to both children and parents, so that they actually want to get an education.

Unfortunately, the American government is unwilling to do that, instead sticking to stereotypes and saying, "Well you're black, so if you didn't get an education it's our fault, not yours. Here, take this job," while at the same time saying, "You're white; it's not our fault if you didn't get an education!" Instead of giving free jobs to underqualified people, why not instead focus on the root of the problem, creating more people who actually have the necessary qualifications?

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

Okay, as interesting as this is, we've moved wildly away from the original topic. The education system is a fairly major hurdle facing America as a whole, but the thread is about practices and behaviors that are effecting the black community.

See..Nobody really decided to directly address my first couple posts on the subject (In my more arrogant moments, I like to think it is because you all agreed with me) but really, this needs to be blatantly addressed:

At what point do the problems facing Blacks in America stop being "The white man's" fault, and -start- being "Their -own- damn fault"?

People who've been liberated form under incredibly cruel and torturous governments, people who've had nations do their level best to -eradicate- them from the face of the earth, these people have had their tragedies -more- recently and in many cases -worse- and seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

Hell, after the Holocaust the world jewish community has rebounded so utterly that Isreal is looked upon as a mean bully by a lot of people, that's a long way from "Someone made a very strong attempt to remove us from existance"

This sounds really callous, and in a lot of ways it is, but I'm sick and tired of being racially abused for something that has nothing to do with me, my father, my father's father, or our entire family line.

Seriously, how long is "White America" going to be held responsible for participating in a behavior that was universally accepted by huge swaths of the world for hundreds and hundreds of years?

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

You're absolutely right. White people should no longer (particularly on an individual basis) be held directly responsible for the current plight of black America. What this does NOT mean, is that we should now IGNORE the plight of black America, and institute government negligence based on "bootstrap" arguments. We should focus on aiding the underpriviledged and eliminating poverty REGARDLESS of whom it affects. In this case it happens to be African Americans as a result of years of oppression and social downbearings. This is a completely separate issue from slavery and that white people "owe" black people. This is now about fighting poverty and helping a group of people.

And in regards to the previous dispute on affirmative action, you are also absolutely correct that the real problem is the educational system and affirmative action does not help. But what it DOES do, is help set balances and even out inequalities WHILE we can fix the educational system. There is no reason we can't do our absolute best to help these kids WHILE we make the changes that need to be made to make affirmative action obsolete.

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

But what it DOES do, is help set balances and even out inequalities WHILE we can fix the educational system. There is no reason we can't do our absolute best to help these kids WHILE we make the changes that need to be made to make affirmative action obsolete.

If we stopped giving them ample reason to just not care that their education system is in tatters, maybe they'd be a little more vocal in clamoring for the positive changes and actually get something done.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: Black Racists

I am indeed in favor that the government shouldn't aid people who aren't willing to learn anything just because they blame white people and slavery. After all, the civil war was a long time ago and if a black person hated their past of slavery, they should go back in time and fight those white people who thought slavery was ok instead of put the pressure on people who already got over this this dark time. White Americans at first made black people poor slaves, but I mean wasn't the whole idea of African Americans getting rights and freedoms based on the fact that the African American community would use these rights and freedoms to vote and be educational? If the African American students who don't study, what was the use of them getting any rights anyways? Perhaps some white people deserve the revenge of the African Amercian community, but not the majority of white people in America now. Indians were kept captive by British people at a point in time and aside from the poor people, India is now becoming a super power with their independence. You guys know Indians can be really brilliant if they think.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

If we stopped giving them ample reason to just not care that their education system is in tatters, maybe they'd be a little more vocal in clamoring for the positive changes and actually get something done.

So what you are saying is that the reason the educational system is so dismal is simply because its victims "just don't care." Why should they care? They simply will not recieve the same benefits as people of well-to-do backgrounds in regards to education, their schools are horrendously underfunded, and the message the government gives to them by not funding their schools is that THEY ARE NOT WORTH IT. If someone grows up with that message, I'd say it's pretty damn probable it'll have an impact. Kids don't "just not care" because of the affirmative action benefits they might recieve, but BECUASE their educational system is in tatters. While it should be No. 1 priority to fix the system, affirmative action (of the kind I described earlier) is not slowing that process and is acting as a placeholder to keep everyone on the same page until it is no longer needed. Affirmative action is NOT the cause of the perpetuation of an educational system in turmoil.

[devonin]

Re: Black Racists

I'm saying that affirmative action is -just enough- of a good band-aid to give the impression of fixing the problems, so people are much less motivated to raise the needed hue and cry to get the changes made that the system so badly needs.

[perkeyone]

Re: Black Racists

rap doesnt help the situation either...
its ignorant
degenerative
counter-culture
the message behind a lot of rap music it that drugs abuse gang violence disrespect especially to authority and women, criminal behavior, and use of bad grammar are acceptable and even appreciable behaviors. i think that if rap did not make it uncool to care about one's education then the blac community would be much better off. it really disappoints me when i am running to class before the bell and i see a group of people walking and they say "oh im bout to be late to class again" and they are walking! is it to much effort to avoid being late to jog a short distance? and then as i run past they yell out "damn why u runnnin u trying to learn that bad?"....
i have to go for now its late but i still have a lot of ranting to do

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: Black Racists

Of course rap doesn't help the situation, but what is anyone going to do about that? If you get rid of rap, you have to get rid of violent movies, violent videogames, and you would have to get rid of the mass media. Now we can't get rid of the media because even though all they show is another dead guy in Iraq (for sensation and viewers), their views can still be true. We can't silence the media because then we wouldn't know what goes on in the world at all and it's their freedom of speech. Violence and disrespect will always be portrayed, but it's up to the viewers to be smart enough to not become that way. Besides, it's not 100% meant to make people gangsters or thugs, its also for entertainment, for rappers to show off their skills, and get paid.

[gnr61]

Re: Black Racists

Yeah. Rap music is clearly what has been keeping black America down since the end of slavery. Not unjust institutions, de facto segregation, rampant stereotypes of ignorance and poverty, and a social and educational structure that seems bent on keeping them where they are. Nope. It's rap music.

On the actual topic.

Devonin: Does this mean that affirmative action is bad and must be gotten rid of, or does it only mean that we need to pay more attention to fixing the educational system? Affirmative action can't be blamed for people's lack of motivation to make change.

[Relambrien]

Re: Black Racists

Affirmative action can't be blamed for people's lack of motivation to make change.

Yes it can. If you know that a company has to hire you because you're black, then you won't be motivated to make any sort of attempt at furthering your education, because there's no reason to. You're being given a job as compensation for injustices suffered in the past by your ancestors. No reason to try and actually become qualified for the job; it's being given to you with no extra work required.

Heck, if I could be given a job making $100,000 a year even if I was unqualified for it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Also, there wouldn't be any reason to try and become qualified for it; it's already been given to me. And they can't fire me because that makes them seem racist.