Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

[EnR]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

I enjoy reading other players opinions on simfiles, review away.

[Izzy]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Theres parts of songs you need to slow down to hear better. Not that you cant hear it on 1.0.

[behanjc]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

I slow down music to step it but only to ACCURATELY make a rhythm of things you can hear at the normal rate.

[Villiex]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Post.

Also, I'm a girl. And, there's no reason to "wreck" me because I haven't said anything other than my opinion. Also, I haven't given it a formal review yet. Not much to wreck me about yet... might as well wait for the review.

[stargroup]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Okay, before I even start,

...the problem is that I can't really analyze the files well because I don't have en editor to view them in. I have to try and do it midgame, which is a mental mess.

Pointing this out, you should not be critiquing files for a few reasons. (Commenting is fine, but critiquing, no.)
1. Since you neither represent the majority or the skilled (in either playing or stepping for that matter), your opinions will not be regarded very highly.
2. If you're having a mental mess just playing through the arrows, then why do you explain as if you have analyzed them before?
3. You're making too much of an effort to try to interpret the arrows. Yes, it's a game, and even though I say that some files do have depth to them, trying too hard to analyze the notes is still a stupid thing to do.
An exception to this would be if you were trying to learn or develop a certain style of stepping, in which close analyzation would be beneficial.

Now to point out what is wrong is all of your theories/opinions/whatever.

I understand wanting to step accurately, but... some stepfile artists seem like they're on an ego trip with how "accurate" they can be, sacrificing making the file flow or be any fun.

Stepping accurately makes a file fun for several reasons. The main reason for even playing these games is to hit notes on the keyboard that will follow the music. It is fun because you feel like you are, in a way, playing it. One way people accentuate this feeling is through layering. By finding a way for the player to follow more than one instrument, it becomes more exciting. Another reason for layering in the first place may be to highlight certain instrument parts in the background that would otherwise go unnoticed. If these background sounds make the song extremely fun, then following them should be even more so, if done correctly.

These step artists (hopefully most of them anyway) do not sacrifice flow when layering. If anything, they could be IMPROVING the flow by filling in gaps in the music where the lead instrument stops. Layering can provide the step artist with many ways to connect different ideas in the music that may be impossible otherwise.

Final Step is like a bunch of hands and quads that aren't really hands and quads, but instead, little 512th notes that are so jammed together that they look like hands and quads. It's a big finger spasm and it's not fun.

They may look like hands/quads to you, but a more skilled player can distinguish the rhythms, and play them as the step artist intended, providing the desired effect. If you were to just mash through the keys, true, you would be playing it, but you wouldn't be following the music as the step artist intended.

-Extra paragraph-
This leads to another philosophy. Why do step artists step songs? Why not just play other files and not have to go through all that work? One reason is because stepping is all about interpretation. If you give a bunch of people the same song to step, I guarantee all the charts will be different somehow. Maybe they'll be similar, or very close, but they will be different. This is because everyone hears the same song, but everyone sees different images when they listen to it. Stepping allows them to show how they want others to hear the music, and show them that they are skilled at listening for these things in the music. There's also the issue of scoring and the game itself, but I won't get into that.

Also, even if you're hitting the arrows as triples or quads, there's nothing wrong with it. Triples and quads may be used as necessary to fully express how the step artist wants you to play a file. If you can't hit them, get better, find a way to hit them, or don't play the file. This is why I think it's stupid for Tass to only allow hands/quads in hard files. Now that we have the privilege, we should be using it to its fullest potential, maximize its effectiveness, rather than limiting it.

I have a pretty strong stance on slowing down a song to hear things you couldn't hear at the normal rate... if you can't hear it at the normal rate, you shouldn't step to it because we are all playing it on the normal rate and that means... we can't hear it! It's really bad stepfiling. Again, that strikes me as an ego trip.

Anyway, I think I've made myself abundantly clear about what I hate in a stepfile.

Slowing the song does not serve this purpose. Any step artist that slows down the music just so he/she can plug in notes that nobody can hear is stupid. Slowing down a song mainly serves 2 major purposes: syncing, and making it easier to follow. Because FFR, SM, and general all RHYTHM games rely on timing, syncing is crucial. If you can follow a song but you can't sync well enough for the player to hit the keys when he/she should, then it makes it difficult or impossible for them to play the file. Slowing down the song allows people to exact their syncing, to make sure that the players are playing what they should. Sometimes even the littlest syncing makes the different between a seemingly random note and brilliant fun following a background effect. As said before, slowing also makes it easier to follow the music. This is generally just used however the step artist feels like, but it is usually a good idea to go through a song at a slower rate to make sure:
1. All the rhythms are correct.
2. Instruments are followed as desired.
3. Background effects and misc. stuff are not missed.

Back to Final Step. All the arrows followed something in the music the step artist intended. If need be, I'm sure behanjc can go into the editor and label each and every arrow. (Sometimes it's more vague, but for this particular file it's possible) Because of the pattern choice, it also flows, but of course it's not easy to see if you're not good enough to hit them accurately. Maybe you have trouble hearing certain sounds in the music, which can probably explain why you might be bad at stepping, considering EVERYTHING IN THIS F*CKING POST I hope that makes sense.

Now let's all agree that Final Step is one of the best files in FFR and go back to casual discussion/higher critique that actually contributes intellectually.

EDIT: Jesus that's a lot of writing O_O

[foilman8805]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Sorry...?

I've liked your other files. Teh Tricky was the most notable, but I just could not deal with Scythe. I'm not really bitching about it, I mean, hell, you did step it correctly, it's just that it's a very tough pattern to successfully PA.

[Villiex]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Eh, it's a long post and I read it all, and... I don't really feel like responding... but I will because I don't want you to have gone through the trouble of writing all that up and I just ignore it.

1. Since you neither represent the majority or the skilled (in either playing or stepping for that matter), your opinions will not be regarded very highly.

I enjoy reading other players opinions on simfiles, review away.

2. If you're having a mental mess just playing through the arrows, then why do you explain as if you have analyzed them before?

...this didn't make much sense. Here, I'll explain it like this.

When I play the level, if my fingers are freezing because the patterns and PA crap thrown in are that awkward... I don't care how "accurate" it is, it's not fun. That's my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with it, but don't try to act as if I'm not entitled to it because of ignorance or whatever else, please.

3. You're making too much of an effort to try to interpret the arrows. Yes, it's a game, and even though I say that some files do have depth to them, trying too hard to analyze the notes is still a stupid thing to do.

Really? That's odd because you're here supporting behanjc's decision to analyze the music closely enough to put the arrows down. If you're trying to say the game doesn't matter that much, that's one thing. But while we're here talking about the game and its stepfiles, I reserve the right to analyze the files, especially in a thread specifically intended to do so. It's not like I go into the files saying "What can I pick out that's bad." I have a nice list of files I've enjoyed on the first play and every play following. If I'm griping about a file, it's because something stood out to me before closely analyzing it; something stood out to me while just trying to play.

Now to point out what is wrong is all of your theories/opinions/whatever.

An opinion can't be wrong.

The main reason for even playing these games is to hit notes on the keyboard that will follow the music. It is fun because you feel like you are, in a way, playing it. One way people accentuate this feeling is through layering.

Of course I agree. There is a way, however, to layer so much that it becomes confusing to understand what you are pressing keys to. By having to play too many instruments at the same time, you lose the rhythm of one instrument because you have to break that rhythm by playing another instrument at the same time. Stepping to piano, layering jumps on snare hits, yes, that gives a good feel. But stepping to drums, then having an awkard 48th or 64th note intended to resemble the way somebody slides off their violin string and onto another is not fun.

Another reason for layering in the first place may be to highlight certain instrument parts in the background that would otherwise go unnoticed. If these background sounds make the song extremely fun, then following them should be even more so, if done correctly.

If they make it fun. This is an opinion. And you really have no business calling mine "wrong".

These step artists (hopefully most of them anyway) do not sacrifice flow when layering. If anything, they could be IMPROVING the flow by filling in gaps in the music where the lead instrument stops. Layering can provide the step artist with many ways to connect different ideas in the music that may be impossible otherwise.

Yeah, I understand filling gaps. That's a good thing. Just so you know, behanjc did that pretty well in some parts of Final Step.

They may look like hands/quads to you, but a more skilled player can distinguish the rhythms, and play them as the step artist intended, providing the desired effect. If you were to just mash through the keys, true, you would be playing it, but you wouldn't be following the music as the step artist intended.

Don't try to make this like I don't have any skill. Did you bother to look at the fact that I have over 450 AAAs and that I got a 7 Good on Final Step on my first time all the way through? I know how to play this game. Even when playing Final Step, though, there are some arrows so closely jammed together to create a "slide" effect on an instrument that it feels like a hand even when hit correctly.

Also, that "slide" effect is a stupid thing to do. I don't feel like I'm "sliding" at all because the press of a button isn't a sliding motion. Stepping to a hi hat is one thing, but I hate when people step to something like a sax note that "slides" up. I hate it. It doesn't feel right at all, even when I hit it right (and trust me, I know how to hit notes).

Not going to address the philosophy paragraph, but it was nice. Good points. I would never argue it.

Slowing down a song mainly serves 2 major purposes: syncing, and making it easier to follow. It is usually a good idea to go through a song at a slower rate to make sure:
1. All the rhythms are correct.
2. Instruments are followed as desired.
3. Background effects and misc. stuff are not missed.

Stepping to everything is not always good... I don't know why people don't understand this. I can show you a pretty good example of a file in which every last SOUND is stepped to, and it will not flow because you will be trying to play 4 or 5 different instruments. It doesn't flow that way.

All the arrows followed something in the music the step artist intended. If need be, I'm sure behanjc can go into the editor and label each and every arrow. (Sometimes it's more vague, but for this particular file it's possible) Because of the pattern choice, it also flows, but of course it's not easy to see if you're not good enough to hit them accurately.

I'm sure he can, but it doesn't make it fun.

Post a rebuttal if you want, but it's a little silly to try and prove someone's opinion to be wrong. I'd understand it if you had posted things about Final Step's actual arrows to defend it, but posting about how my opinions are "wrong" just makes you look egotistical.

[t-rogdor]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

*Facepalm* Both of you stop it. This is turning (JUST AS I PREDICTED) into a flamefest.

Also, Villiex, i dont doubt that sometimes it's hard to hear parts of a song, when they were stepped slowly, at regular speed. Example, look at the random White notes in Hiro's Theme.

[Villiex]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Hey, you know, it's funny, Hero's Theme came to mind when thinking about PA crap. I understand most of the stuff in Hero's Theme, but the white notes... I dunno.

Also, I didn't flame stargroup even in my response. And I don't feel like he flamed me... I'm not mad at him or offended by anything other than him trying to call my opinions wrong. It's a discussion... that's what this thread is for. I just found it silly to try and pull my opinion apart. If you're going to pull anything apart, make it a simfile.

[foilman8805]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

*Facepalm* Both of you stop it. This is turning (JUST AS I PREDICTED) into a flamefest.

I don't know how long you've been around forums, but this has to be the mildest flaming I've ever seen in my life...even for someone like stargroup who is known for his flaming. Neither of them went out of their way to berate one another, to be honest. So, try not to incite anyone with a statement like that.

EDIT: Ninja'd by VX.

[stargroup]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

t-rogdor shut up it's not a flamefest we're obviously having a nice talk about things

Villiex, normally I would reply and pick out all the things I would want to argue, except that everything I would say would end up coming to one main point. You're looking at this from the wrong angle. Opinions are not wrong, but if you follow through with your ideas throughout the world of rhythm gaming, are you seriously going to progress? In some cases, there is objectivity to these things, even opinions. Some opinions are right, some are wrong, many are neither. In this case, however, your views are contradictory to rhythm gaming.

And yes, though it's not what you're aiming at, I am a bit egotistical at times. However, I have proven myself worthy of boasting through my accomplishments throughout the community. Thanks for asking.

EDIT: wow double ninja T_T

[Villiex]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Eh, I only responded because I didn't want to be rude. I mean, undeniably, some of the things you said in your post were correct. Others, I disagree with. That's all.

if you follow through with your ideas throughout the world of rhythm gaming, are you seriously going to progress?

"Progress"? Uhhh... within the last few days, I have already FCed 3 FMOs I wasn't able to FC a week ago. Not quite sure what you mean by progress... considering I have had the same opinions on stepfiles for the 3 years I have been playing rhythm games.

your views are contradictory to rhythm gaming.

No... what I'm fighting for IS the "rhythm". When I play Final Step, I feel as if I am losing rhythm whenever a blob of layered notes comes along. I have to move away from the instrument I was playing in order to play a different one, and then switch back. That's not rhythm. Rhythm is a constant beat... being able to pick up on the timing of consecutive 4th notes, and equating the timing of 8ths, 12ths, 16ths, etc by that. When 48ths and 64ths come into play, it becomes too hard to keep a "rhythm" because the timing is just too fine, and not experienced enough (unless the timing is written in 48ths and 64ths; for example, halfing the tempo of something).

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. It was interesting.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Well, lets call this a music game, not nessecarily a rhythm game. The finely synced 32nds and 48ths in those type of songs follow the music, which makes them perfect for a music game. Simple as that.

If you find yourself losing PA because of those notes, all I can say is practice more.


EDIT- Though I do have to say, that's what I believe for SM. On FFR, when a jump followed by a 64th becomes a triple, that's really annoying. But that's a fault of the game, not the stepper, in my opinion.

[Villiex]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Haha, I think people missed the point that this isn't how I am performing on the game. If that's the case, I have a large list of files to complain about. It isn't about my PA, it's about how amazingly wrong it feels pressing those things. It's about how amazingly NOT FUN it is. Honestly, I could AAA Final Step, and if I ever did, I wouldn't all the sudden decide "Well now that I AAAed it, I must be better, so I like it now!" It's not about being good at the game... or at least, a very small amount of it is.

If you want to emphasize stepping to everything in the music because it's a music game, though, then I can go the other way with this and tell you that behanjc missed a WHOLE LOAD OF STUFF in Final Step. But honestly, I'm glad he left a lot of that out. Why? Wouldn't have made fun steps. I think it's about what's fun to hit, while still going to the music, obviously.

[devonin]

Re: Ingame Songs/Stepfiles Discussion Thread

Just to quiet any further insinuations in the discussion: nothing in the past several pages is trolling or flaming, and the mods don't need users to tell us when they think it is or isn't crossing those lines. If you want to report a post, use the report function. The quickest way to turn a good discussion into a troll/flame fest is for someone to come along and tell them they are being trolly/flamey