Should we consider double setup "legit"

[icontrolyourworld]

OK guys hear me out on this. I know it can be used to beat jackhammers like they're no ones business, and perhaps make some specific patterns easy to hit compared to spread/index, but really why not consider it legit? It wouldn't be an easy playstyle to learn and master, but for anyone that can it might yield the next generation of skill and encourage new and interesting files that might still be fun to play using spread. From what I understand people only consider it cheating because anyone can get a good score on jackhammer madness and that's about it. The "vibrating age" is pretty much over, no one cares too much about MIHC scores anymore right? I'm more interested to see what kind of scores and potential a legit double setup player could bring to the table, maybe 400 bpm streams could become the norm for double setup players. That'd be cool right?

What do you guys think?

[Mahou]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I never thought double setup was cheating...but I know some players feel like it defeats the purpose of how the file should have been played.

[gold stinger]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

FFR is 4key rhythm based game, not 8key. The game wouldn't be based around properly trying to hit patterns anymore, but trying to remember which areas of a song constitutes a 'double-tap'. I say leave it as is right now.

It also has a lot more to do than just "getting good scores on jackhammer madness", it has to do with response time, and speed, which is what makes up a large majority of good players. Don't think I'm trying to defend good players in the slightest - the problem is that 100% of players would have to scrap their playstyles for a playstyle that no one has practice using, for the chance of being able to get better scores.

tl;dr using 4 keys for 4 arrows is kind of a given and I don't see why FFR would constitute legibility of using 8 keys instead, or 16 keys, or 32, or a bot.

ps
just like how people started using hands & quads when keyboards started registering more than 2 keys at a time,
accepting 8key setup gives valid reason for charters to create 0-framers on purpose.

[korny]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

You must be on a completely different level of shameless to try to justify using double set-up...

You are unfuckingbelievable dude

[FF_rules]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

And here I came in expecting 8 key ffr. Double set up is fine imo but it does change the game up; There are always two sides to this story though and I can't back either..

[qqwref]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

Yes, the "vibrating age" is pretty much over. Now the most impressive scores are incredible speed achievements. There's really no reason that couldn't be done with double setup too, though, with enough time, because double setup is fundamentally better than single setup. But double setup also allows someone to do a Dossar style "controlled mash" at twice the speed, with 1/100th of the skill requirement of actually playing the thing. Is that really something we want to see, D4 players easily FCing anything in the game, and top people getting a C on 900bpm stream charts and files as hard as vrofl? Take a hard 8key stream file, offset the right hand by a 32nd, layer the two sides on top of each other, and you'll see what kind of files people will be playing after a year or two of double setup being the norm.

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

[gold stinger]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

using double setup also becomes a hardware issue because it requires you to use an outside program to rebind keys on your keyboard to the first set of 4 keys for playing. On top of that, keyboards for sure cannot handle 8 keys being pressed all at the same time, which would require a person to use 2 keyboards to participate in the 8 key setup properly.

[Rapta]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I'm one of those guys who says "Change? fuck thatt"

[choof]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

people have enough of a problem picking up solo, double set-up play would take way too long to master and no one would call it a legitimate playstyle

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

FFR is 4key rhythm based game, not 8key. The game wouldn't be based around properly trying to hit patterns anymore, but trying to remember which areas of a song constitutes a 'double-tap'. I say leave it as is right now.

It also has a lot more to do than just "getting good scores on jackhammer madness", it has to do with response time, and speed, which is what makes up a large majority of good players. Don't think I'm trying to defend good players in the slightest - the problem is that 100% of players would have to scrap their playstyles for a playstyle that no one has practice using, for the chance of being able to get better scores.

tl;dr using 4 keys for 4 arrows is kind of a given and I don't see why FFR would constitute legibility of using 8 keys instead, or 16 keys, or 32, or a bot.

ps
just like how people started using hands & quads when keyboards started registering more than 2 keys at a time,
accepting 8key setup gives valid reason for charters to create 0-framers on purpose.

i kind of figured that this would come up
iirc didn't people consider spread to be like cheating when index and one hand were the norm?

Yes, the "vibrating age" is pretty much over. Now the most impressive scores are incredible speed achievements. There's really no reason that couldn't be done with double setup too, though, with enough time, because double setup is fundamentally better than single setup. But double setup also allows someone to do a Dossar style "controlled mash" at twice the speed, with 1/100th of the skill requirement of actually playing the thing. Is that really something we want to see, D4 players easily FCing anything in the game, and top people getting a C on 900bpm stream charts and files as hard as vrofl? Take a hard 8key stream file, offset the right hand by a 32nd, layer the two sides on top of each other, and you'll see what kind of files people will be playing after a year or two of double setup being the norm.

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

that's just the thing though! we knowingly acknowledge that double setup could be fundamentally better, and it does change the game, but who's to say that could be a really bad thing?
It probably would lead to double the speed of a dossar mash, i don't agree that it would be without effort though. you'd still have to work on reading skills and a lot of coordination
this would result in some ridiculous scores if done correctly but it would still be impressive at least to me

[choof]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

i kind of figured that this would come up
iirc didn't people consider spread to be like cheating when index and one hand were the norm?

yeah but that idea was quickly squashed when people realized how limiting index/one-hand were

i think you could equate double set-up to playing any other rhythm game with two people on the same player

[danny53x]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

When I first met some people decent at Stepmania irl they were using double setup

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

yeah but that idea was quickly squashed when people realized how limiting index/one-hand were

i think you could equate double set-up to playing any other rhythm game with two people on the same player

and some people still dish out SUPER sick one handed and index scores. I'm not saying that we should all convert to DS just to accept that it's another playstyle that could produce its own awesome scores. it probably wouldn't even become the dominant playstyle like spread did because i think it would be harder to perfect than 1 finger per key.

i wouldn't boil it down to 2 people on the same player, because it's still one person playing it.

If you want to do double setup, play it as a separate thing. Maybe you'll get some competition. But in almost all cases it destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped, and makes it way easier to mash through anything difficult. Who wants that?

I didn't respond to this oops
so you're saying that all good scores on index/pad charts using spread "destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped"

because i don't

[lurker]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

i think you just want more people to AA shanghai moon

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

shit you caught me red handed D: