Should we consider double setup "legit"

[qqwref]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I didn't respond to this oops
so you're saying that all good scores on index/pad charts using spread "destroys the impressiveness of speed scores, destroys the feel of playing a chart the way it's stepped"

because i don't

Well, I kinda don't think spread scores should really "count" for files that are clearly meant as fast pad charts. I'd rather see someone like Etienne or Vertex (rip) wreck 300bpm padstream with index than see someone like Staiain blast through the chart without difficulty - and I'd rather consider the index score the real record, with the spread score being an "oh yeah, also..." thing.

Same idea with playing xmod charts on cmod, the real best scores should be xmodded, and a cmod score is just for fun, or because you want to see what you'd get.

[Hakulyte]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

Add Raw Scoring.
Move RATO and Death Piano to Legacy Tokens.
Remove vrofl, Party4u v1, TWWW and Crowdpleaser.

Now that this has been done, explain to me why someone would want to use double setup. It's not like you can hit fast stream any better, it's only useful for repetitive patterns like jack/jumpjacks and we don't have songs that are like jackhammer madness and joke files which are supposed to be rejected on sight.

TLDR; There shouldn't be any reason in-game for you to want to use DS to begin with. That should be part of the simfile judging process. So, no.

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

Well, I kinda don't think spread scores should really "count" for files that are clearly meant as fast pad charts. I'd rather see someone like Etienne or Vertex (rip) wreck 300bpm padstream with index than see someone like Staiain blast through the chart without difficulty - and I'd rather consider the index score the real record, with the spread score being an "oh yeah, also..." thing.

Same idea with playing xmod charts on cmod, the real best scores should be xmodded, and a cmod score is just for fun, or because you want to see what you'd get.

see how this loops back around to what i'm saying though? if we consider double setup legit, we could potentially open the door to new fun files for doublesetup. it may or may not be fun to do on spread similar to how a lot of files nowadays aren't fun to play index, but that's a given.

i don't think it's much to ask that double setup become a legit. it feels like we're closing off the doors to a whole new realm of possibility, if this truely became a thing people might even be able to play or transition into 8k, or 6k or whatever

Add Raw Scoring.
Move RATO and Death Piano to Legacy Tokens.
Remove vrofl, Party4u v1, TWWW and Crowdpleaser.

Now that this has been done, explain to me why someone would want to use double setup.

I've already spoken my mind on it but here i go again:

It opens a new realm of possibility for insane scores and it wouldn't be easy to master.
It's not saying that everyone has to convert to DS, but that it should be a playstyle that is acceptable similar to how spread came to be. People can still play index, one hand, and spread and dish out cool scores, but then we also have this!
People may push scoring to a whole new level. (and spread would still be competitive)
It opens up new ideas that could be fun for a new playstyle, including charts.
It may make it easy to transition to 8k or 6k play having the muscle memory already somewhat in place, if that's something that you're interested in.
Why not? It could be fun.

So far I've been able to parallel every reason to not consider DS legit with a reason to consider it legit. I found qqwref's argument interesting that it would ruin the game, when obviously spread didn't ruin it, opening up a whole lot of things that wouldn't have been possible before. AND everyone gets to play what they like.

[Mahou]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

The game has changed a lot since FFR has been released. I wouldn't mind seeing someone wreck songs with double setup.

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

How can you take advantage of double setup on FFR? If your scores are worse than your spread scores with double setup, I'd assume no one would really cares?

It's not about taking advantage, it's about being more open to different playstyles. If the scores DO happen to be worse and no one cares, why consider it cheating at all to begin with?

[Ohaider]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I always considered the relationship of double setup to spread the same as spread to one handed or index

[hi19hi19]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

1 key -> 1 arrow
The position of your fingers to hit those keys is up to you.
It's not a stated rule but it's very clearly implied in the game.
For example, the options menu doesn't let you bind multiple keys for each arrow.
It very clearly gives players the ability to bind one key per arrow.

I have no problem with overlay for this reason. It's very different. Much more akin to the difference between index/spread/one-hand.

[Charu]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

One arrow... to rule them ALL!!!

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

1 key -> 1 arrow
The position of your fingers to hit those keys is up to you.
It's not a stated rule but it's very clearly implied in the game.
For example, the options menu doesn't let you bind multiple keys for each arrow.
It very clearly gives players the ability to bind one key per arrow.

I have no problem with overlay for this reason. It's very different. Much more akin to the difference between index/spread/one-hand.

if this is an issue with options in the game RIGHT NOW
we would have never gained access to speed modifiers in the past. we'd still be screen cutting. we would not be able to map our keys to things other than the arrow keys. we would not have split scrolling and whatnot.

I'm not asking to add multiple keymappings per arrow to the engine (although that would be AWESOME), i'd like people to be more open to players that find that DS is more their style of play.

It's just a video game, and even if we don't consider it the correct way to play, who are we to say no don't play that way that's cheating.?

[hi19hi19]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

if this is an issue with options in the game RIGHT NOW
we would have never gained access to speed modifiers in the past. we'd still be screen cutting. we would not be able to map our keys to things other than the arrow keys. we would not have split scrolling and whatnot.

This game is a DDR clone. In case you didn't notice that, the name of the site implies we are.
All the DDR consoles I've ever played have only had one panel on the dancepad per arrow.
Notably, DDR games have had things like speed modifiers, which is why they were eventually added into FFR as well.

Now, obviously FFR is not the same game as DDR. But there's a respect for tradition here.
One input per arrow has been a constant since the very first game was released, so I don't see any reason to suddenly redefine the entire genre right now as a result of one forum thread.

It's just a video game, and even if we don't consider it the correct way to play, who are we to say no don't play that way that's cheating.?

This strikes me as a pretty weak argument.
"But using macros and bots is my style of playing" follows the same lines, no?
If we don't define cheating by what is acceptable in the community, how else do we define it?

One input per arrow has been the standard of acceptable in the community now for over 10 years. It's foundational.
There's certainly a lot of fun to be had playing double setup, but you have to respect why everyone is considering it essentially a different game- because it is.

[ShurykaN]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

Edit: I think it would be legitimate if the stepfiles were intended to be played with double setup. Most files are intended to be played spread or index and using a superior input method would defeat the purpose.

Double Edit: Also Corn's sig breaks site rules.

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

This game is a DDR clone. In case you didn't notice that, the name of the site implies we are.
All the DDR consoles I've ever played have only had one panel on the dancepad per arrow.
Notably, DDR games have had things like speed modifiers, which is why they were eventually added into FFR as well.

Now, obviously FFR is not the same game as DDR. But there's a respect for tradition here.
One input per arrow has been a constant since the very first game was released, so I don't see any reason to suddenly redefine the entire genre right now as a result of one forum thread.


This strikes me as a pretty weak argument.
"But using macros and bots is my style of playing" follows the same lines, no?
If we don't define cheating by what is acceptable in the community, how else do we define it?

If it's a respect for tradition why are we playing on keyboards and not metal pads? BECAUSE it's a clone and there are differences here and it is a different game. We don't have 4 legs so why do we use 4 fingers?

This isn't a genre defining thing. It's letting people do what's fun for them.

If you want to write a program/bot that AAA's 9999nps songs good on ya, we can draw the line at bots. Keep it out of ffr, there's no competition there.
But why take away from someone that is actually trying to have fun and improve their real skill? Why tell someone they can't have fun simply because we arbitrarily decide that double setup is cheating. Why limit the capabilities of everyone simply based on tradition when in the past we've broken tradition to have fun?

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

I know it is. Mind giving me a reason why it should stay that way? MORE IMPORTANTLY why we should adopt that mentality and bash all DS scores?

[gold stinger]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

Yes, that's why this thread was made, to appeal the possibilities of having said rule removed.

[Charu]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I'm going to use 4 keys for one arrow so I can do those jacky files.

[Charu]

Re: Should we consider double setup "legit"

I'm going to play a trill file as if I'm rolling.