D8 Deb8

[klimtkiller]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

if there was a d8 my ego would be damaged immensely.

edit: oh wow there is a d8...but surely there are too few players for this to be a legitimate division?

[MikeShinoda12345]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

I'd prefer the scoring not be cumulative, cutoffs and the fact that at the start of each round everything is equalized is pretty hype and keeps people in the tournament without feeling dragged down by a previous bad score

[Dinglesberry]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

edit 2: since we're gonna be super petty and go down this route - i've got my D7 title back and am now formally requesting to be placed in D8 because that's where I believe I belong - now i'm not involuntarily placed there and there's no benefit. woooo.

speaking of being super petty i heard that d6 isnt stacked enough maybe u should hit that up

[Dinglesberry]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

D8 shouldnt be a thing just because one person surpasses the rest of US by far.... Ya'll lucky there isn't 5 divisions still haha.

yo this is an alt account posting i swear!!11!

edit: nice alt

[AutotelicBrown]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

If supporting a D8 in the tournament is really needed, my suggestion to go about it would be the following:

- The D7 and D8 song lists would be overlapped so that round 1 in D8 will be the round 1 + n in D7. This means D7 will get n unique easier files and D8 will get n unique harder files.

- D8 round 1 would only happen when round 1 + n is happening for every other division. The tournament as a whole would go for n more weeks until D8 finishes.

The benefits I see from this approach:

- From a logistical perspective, getting n new super hard files is more reasonable than 8. For this tournament in particular it also gives time to figure out specifics of how things will work for D8 in general.

- One of the main benefits of the tournaments is fostering activity in the site as a whole. At least judging from twitch activity on top players' channels, D8 seems to be at a level where their performance can drive attention by itself in the proposed extra n weeks of the tournament. This would work like various sports and e-sports tournaments where the last rounds give the spotlight for individual matches when only the best players are still around.

- n can be changed as time passes and the top players get better.

That being said, it's not like I really support the creation of D8 in the first place. D7 is still fairly small and on past tourneys a good amount of people signing up were retired players nowhere close to their peak. Supporting a new division with a dozen players who play ffr once a year to wreck the hardest files feels silly.

I'd rather have D7 reworked so that the prizes cover a larger range of players than the other divisions. Maybe keep the same prizes based on round reached, but increase the number of players still around on each round. And also increase how fast the difficulty picks up after each round to accommodate rising skill levels.

And I agree that moving goalposts would mess up pretty badly with the historical understanding of what divisions even mean. That's not to say I support or not having divisions in the first place, that's a topic for another time.

[SK8R43]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

Lol at there being a D8. I'd say it's fine if there was at least 15 people that belonged there, but there isn't. I'd say D8 should be level 102+....

Seriously though, there's really not that many people in D7 to warrant a new division just because of one new person aaaing RATO.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

Lol at there being a D8. I'd say it's fine if there was at least 15 people that belonged there, but there isn't. I'd say D8 should be level 102+....

Seriously though, there's really not that many people in D7 to warrant a new division just because of one new person aaaing RATO.

Why do you argue ? Let the affected people debate or provide some actual arguments lmao

Like it's been said, the amount of players isnt the only thing at play; low D7 players have a nearly non-existant chance at getting scores as good as high D7 (applies to D6 a little bit less, and D5 a bit less, etc). That tendency could very well match with a setting where the higher the division, the less players are in it. Ofc there has to be a balance between that logic and having not too many divisions for the available content (new files). In this case it doesn't matter much since D8 would play the same files as D7, so I wouldnt do it, but for future events/OTs I believe D8 is definitely a thing.

[klimtkiller]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

Why do you argue ? Let the affected people debate or provide some actual arguments lmao

Like it's been said, the amount of players isnt the only thing at play; low D7 players have a nearly non-existant chance at getting scores as good as high D7 (applies to D6 a little bit less, and D5 a bit less, etc). That tendency could very well match with a setting where the higher the division, the less players are in it. Ofc there has to be a balance between that logic and having not too many divisions for the available content (new files). In this case it doesn't matter much since D8 would play the same files as D7, so I wouldnt do it, but for future events/OTs I believe D8 is definitely a thing.

if d8 plays the same files as d7 it seems kinda pointless to have a d8. and when there are so few people in a division it isnt as exciting. literally less than 1 person gets eliminated per round...unless if we're doing cumulative scores which i also think is a bad idea

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

if d8 plays the same files as d7 it seems kinda pointless to have a d8. and when there are so few people in a division it isnt as exciting. literally less than 1 person gets eliminated per round...unless if we're doing cumulative scores which i also think is a bad idea

Quick idea here, I dont think it's been mentionned:

- Cumulative scoring could be a weighted sum of the raw goods, with the weight being the difference between the actual file's difficulty and the mean difficulty of the files for the division. With that, goods on the first file would give a bigger penalty than goods on the later files.

Havent thought it through yet though
I believe it would be an incentive to play consistent, and not simply do meh on the first rounds if you know you'll be good on the later rounds

[blanky]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

the following was originally pm'ed to OWA, but now i've changed my mind and decided i want it public.

blanky's stray thoughts about a divisionless tournament

so. about divisions. i am 100 percent in favor for a divisionless 12th OT. i don't know why ppl want divisions, let alone an eighth division. can't remember where it was but mina said something funny about this.

stray thoughts. here's what i would do: one division weighted cumulative. round one gets 1x multiplier. round two 2x. and so on. (weights can be modified, but you get the drift). also, each round contains multiple songs: namely, what a usual round in a divisioned tournament what have. raw scores on each songs are summed.
why is this good?
1. take your rapidly improving average joe. if they fall behind on one round, then they can make it up more in later rounds when they've improved to a higher level. this goes with the idea that the tournaments are about improvement.
2. the whole community gets unified in one division and there is a clear winner. we get to see great competition, and even if a player gets in the bottom 25th percentile, they won't be alone, because of the players surrounding them.
3. now look at the top players. they'll still be neck and neck with each other, and they will always have a chance to move up in rounds. harder songs will have higher multipliers, thus more clearly delineating who's better at arrowsmashing.
4. no "aaa-or'die" scenarios because cumulative

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

the following was originally pm'ed to OWA, but now i've changed my mind and decided i want it public.

blanky's stray thoughts about a divisionless tournament

so. about divisions. i am 100 percent in favor for a divisionless 12th OT. i don't know why ppl want divisions, let alone an eighth division. can't remember where it was but mina said something funny about this.

stray thoughts. here's what i would do: one division weighted cumulative. round one gets 1x multiplier. round two 2x. and so on. (weights can be modified, but you get the drift). also, each round contains multiple songs: namely, what a usual round in a divisioned tournament what have. raw scores on each songs are summed.
why is this good?
1. take your rapidly improving average joe. if they fall behind on one round, then they can make it up more in later rounds when they've improved to a higher level. this goes with the idea that the tournaments are about improvement.
2. the whole community gets unified in one division and there is a clear winner. we get to see great competition, and even if a player gets in the bottom 25th percentile, they won't be alone, because of the players surrounding them.
3. now look at the top players. they'll still be neck and neck with each other, and they will always have a chance to move up in rounds. harder songs will have higher multipliers, thus more clearly delineating who's better at arrowsmashing.
4. no "aaa-or'die" scenarios because cumulative

I'm mostly only in favor of divisions for the OT because of the content. A divisionless tournament would either have many players play songs way too easy/hard for them or we'd have so many rounds that it would cover the whole spectrum many times (way too long). With divisions you get to give players files within their expected range of skill + we all get many files overall. Now ofc the files could be released otherwise, but that's just one argument that follows the other.

[rushyrulz]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

I'd prefer the scoring not be cumulative, cutoffs and the fact that at the start of each round everything is equalized is pretty hype and keeps people in the tournament without feeling dragged down by a previous bad score

IMO getting eliminated (elimination style) and being hopelessly low in the standings (cumulative style) is the same feeling, no matter the format. I think for the top 5 though, it presents a bit of a comeback mechanic if we went cumulative.

[devonin]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

I think making decisions about divisions based on how many people would end up in them is part of what got us into trouble in the first place. The barrier levels were pretty arbitrary in order to make the number of players in each division map onto what you'd expect in other ELO-style tier systems.

But we don't have anything like an ELO system, when a player moves up a division, nobody gets moved down. Your specific ranking number can change but once you get into D6 you're in D6 no matter how many people move ahead of you.

So to me, the point of divisions should be to separate players into discrete chunks where everybody in that chunk is capable of meaningfully competing with everybody else in it.

So if you look at D3 (50-58) I think that it is entirely possible for a level 50 player having a good week to compete against a level 58 player having a bad week and have a meaningful competition about it. When you look at D5 (69-82) a division that is 155% the size of D3's level range, I don't think a 69 and an 82 can have an especially meaningful competition. That 82 is going to win at least 95% of the time.

95 and 105 is an -even larger gap- AND at the top end, 1 level is actually bigger than a level at the low end because of how few ways there are to actually increase it.

D7 as it stands has no competition. The people at the bottom just -can not compete- with the people at the top, more than literally any other division. So if the actual primary purpose of divisions is "For sorting players in tournaments by their skill level" we not only need a D8, we probably need 4-6 additional divisions on top of that to actually break up the difficulties by ranges where internal competition is possible.

I've always had to point out to people that 95% of people who sign up for an OT basically have no chance to win, and that's no less true now. And I also know that anybody who is actually currently fully and correctly placed, that 5% chance to win probably drops to 1%, every division under 6 and 7 is won by somebody on their way to D6 and D7 who just happens to be in the lower division at the start of the tournament.

And so yes, an appropriately defined top division might have only 1-5 players in it currently, but I don't actually think that is a compelling reason not to do it. We're averaging an OT once every 2 years? That means we've got 2 years to either see some D7 players move up into D8, or, with an actual meaningful distinction for D8 players vs D7, and the intention from several of us to try and improve the breadth of top-end song selection, we can bring over more D8 players from other games.

Build it, and then design to support it, and they will come.

[SK8R43]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

So basically what you guys are saying is each division should have players around the same skill? Just because low D7 can't compete with high D7 doesn't mean anything more than every other division. D1 has people who can barely pass level 2s and people aaaing 10s. D6 has level like 82s versus people aaaing like 94s lmao.
The system makes no sense. We don't need another division unless the other ones are getting worked on as well.

[Poison-]

Re: 12th Official Tournament

Comparing D7 to D1 is the most laughable thing I have ever read on FFR