If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

I'm not sure how to say this without sounding like a huge idiot, because all of you seem to know a lot about this issue and I know so little.

However, this is what I've heard on it: the east likes america, if for the sole fact that america intervenes and stops people from hurting each other (sometimes). When a country is occupied by american troops, civil conflicts become less and things get a bit more peaceful. Since the americans are regulating everything... violent countries get toned down.

Of course, this is assuming a peaceful american presence. I don't really know if that's america's role right now. I do know that a lot of countries are happy to have the american presence - on an individual basis, the people like it. The government's not always too happy about it. Like in northern Japan, the american presence at their embassy helps a lot with civil matters. They're sort of like a father figure - asians look up to them and try to follow their model.

I'm not really stating these as facts. Since you guys seem to know so much about this, and I really don't, I'm more looking for confirmation of these points. I'd be very happy if I'm right. But maybe I'm not.

Anyway, what's this got to do with Hilary? In this case, if Hilary gets elected, and removes american troops immediately from the middle east, the government will be happy but there will be civil turmoil. Basically the country will fall apart because they don't really have a leader anymore - america's acting that role. Nobody knows what to do, so it'll just fall apart. And maybe some arbitrary part of the broken government will rise and try to take power, but it really won't work very well, resulting in more chaos...

Basically, once america's there, they can't leave.

Lol, it has almost nothing to do with Hillary. Actually, the way I asked the OP was "if Clinton's elected will America become a matriarchal society?"
And it got onto how adequate a president she would be. Then I sad that no matter who the next presidedent will be they'll suck because they have to dig us out of Bush's hole. Then...you get the point.

But in essence, she reitterated (sp?) my point.

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

The thing is Chrissi, the American presence in Japan is some guys standing around an embassy looking important. The American presence in Iraq is a hostile occupation force.

The presence of Americans in Iraq has made the country LESS stable, there is MORE conflict, more violence, more damage being done to people and property than there was before the Americans invaded.

Nobody has been advocating that the US remove all its troops from the Middle East. They have forces in Israel that are pretty much propping up the whole country from being retaken by Palestinians, they have troops involved in peacekeeping missions in a number of other places, but they are there through the auspices of the UN, invited, with a specific job to do.

The thing I've been advocating is the removal of an uninvited, illegal, hostile occupation force that has done more to cause Iraqi death and destruction in oh God it's been over 5 years now, than in the previous ten.

America's presence in Iraq is not peaceful. They invaded, toppled the legally recognized if not the nicest legitimate authority, and sparked off some of the worst sectarian violence the country has ever had.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Another thing we can most likely agree on (excluding devonin, I assume) is that America has invaded. America has caused turmoil. America has done damage. Iraq was an unstable country. The Middle East was an unstable region. Iraq did need assistance. Those are all relatively classified facts.

However, like I just said, America DID invade. There's no denying or changing that. But the thing is, it's too late to do anything about what's already happened. Had more thought gone into the decisian, more efficiency we would see. But it didn't.

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

America invaded: yes I agree
America caused turmoil: yes I agree
America has done damage: yes I agree
Iraq was an unstable country: I disagree, compared to a number of countries including putative allies of America, Iraq was one of the most stable countries in the region
The Middle East is unstable: They've been forced into the channels they are in, and if there is instability it is only these nations trying to assert their own national identity against the mold of enforced western ideas.
Iraq needed assistance: Assistance to do what? Overthrow the legitimate leader? Spark off huge amounts of sectarian violence? Tell the ruling ethnic group that they were forced to adapt to democracy thus giving power to the non-ruling ethnic group?

Yeah but you see, you just don't invade sovereign powers -without- putting that "more thought" into it. America violated a large number of international laws by ignoring the UN and invading without their support.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Yes, based on the other Middle Eastern countries Iraq was the most stable. The key words there are 'other Middle Eastern countries'. However, based on the 'civilized' countries like Americe, Canada, England, France, and most other European countries, it was not.
The Iraqis needed their dictator to be taken out of power, like Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Stolan (spelling?), King George, etc. The difference between the way they fell from power and the way Saddam fell from power is the outcome.

When they fell from power/were assassinated/seceded(sp?), the opposing country(s) did not collapse into the hell Iraq is.
Had America taken the former dictator from power in a better fashion, such hell could be avoided (don't ask me for an idea on how to have done that, I don't have anymore than you do).

[Zythus]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Better fashion? It comes down to that US took power, or they didn't.
The fact was that Iraq needed the stability of dictatorship to maintain order. Regardless of method, this order was nulled by the US occupation. I do not think that some alternative method would appease the situation Iraq is currently in, unless you care to support your answer.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Seems pretty pointless to ask me to support something I just said I had no theories on ... I'll try anyway.

Say ... say America took Saddam and used him as a puppet. Or they ... that's relatively all I've got... you have anything better?