If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

I think (though I'd often joke this wasn't possible) that you may be overestimating the alleged stupidity of american voters. I think the majority who are dissatisfied with the Bush administration understand that it isn't going to be a magic bullet to elect someone else, and that so many things are in motion that they can't simply be undone by the incoming president.

If the next president sets a hard timetable for withdrawl from Iraq, tones down some of the more horrific abuses of the Patriot Acts 1 and 2, cuts a few billion from defense spending to not run such a large deficit, and maybe for the first time in its history, declare a green or blue terror alert level, that will be enough to satisfy most Americans that the problems are being worked at.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Withdrawing from Iraq would literally be the stupidest possible thing the next American president could do. If we leave (we meaning Americans) that's just telling the Middle Eastern people to attack us with even less of a defense because we'd have no knowledge of the coming attack.

Now, devonin, I'm not saying the American voters are stupid. What I am saying is that the people behind the presidential campaigns are more intelligent than they average joe, and can really easily manipulate the thoughts and possible ever morals of the public. That's how certain presidents got into office to begin with i.e. Nixon, Bush himself, Clinton (somewhat, he was very beneficial to the American economy).

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Wow. You've completely bought into the Bush doctrine on Iraq. Leaving is ABSOLUTELY VITAL. The longer America sits there as an occupying force, the more they radicalize people in the area. They being there is encouraging more people to become more apt to want to attack them than leaving ever would.

You know how many of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq? None
You know how many were connected to Iraq? None

Why on earth would them leaving Iraq make them have "no knowledge of the coming attack" when NONE of the attacks have had ANYTHING to do with Iraq?

If the next US president doesn't set a hard timetable for withdrawl from Iraq, that is when you are going to be in severe trouble.

Also, Clinton was in my estimation one of the best things to happen to America's presidency in decades.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

No, actually I haven't payed any attention to the Bush doctrine. What I'm saying is, we hardly got the Taliban out of Iraq and Kuwait. If we leave they WILL just come back. And if they come back they may end up doing the same thing Saddam did. Actually, they would most likely secure their territory by attacking us.

However, even if the Taliban don't return, there's no doubt that hostile Iraqis will attack America. And if there is no American troop or intelligence there we would have no knowledge of a coming attack.

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

No, actually I haven't payed any attention to the Bush doctrine. What I'm saying is, we hardly got the Taliban out of Iraq and Kuwait.

Wait...the Taliban in Iraq and Kuwait, this is the same Taliban composed entirely of Pakistani and Afghanis whose sole purpose in forming was to pull Afghanistan out from under the rule of the Mujahideen warlords? IE. the same Taliban that has nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq or Kuwait?

The same Taliban that the US didn't distance itself from until 1997? As in 6 years AFTER the gulf war? As in "while the US was involved in Kuwaiti affairs, they were SUPPORTING the Taliban in the hopes of stabilizing Afghanistan?

If we leave they WILL just come back. And if they come back they may end up doing the same thing Saddam did. Actually, they would most likely secure their territory by attacking us.

Who will come back? The Taliban will come back to Iraq? They were never there, so they aren't likely to "come back" And even if they were, the vast majority of the fundamentalist islamic groups in the middle east have long viewed Iraq as a secular country in the pocket of the west anyway. The taliban and al-quaeda are ideologically just as likely to -attack- Iraq as the US. Iraq is not and has never been "territory" of the Taliban, so they can't exactly take it back.

However, even if the Taliban don't return, there's no doubt that hostile Iraqis will attack America. And if there is no American troop or intelligence there we would have no knowledge of a coming attack.

You know what makes the Iraqis hostile? This big bloody occupation force that was never supposed to be there. That's what is radicalizing islamic opinion about America and breeding all these terrorists you're so worried about. If they'd just leave them alone, they'd have no reason to be mad.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

I am talking about the Taliban who were forbeably removed from the Middle East during the Gulf War. They would most likely return if we deserted the Middle East. However, given the longevity that they've been gone for their philosophies may have changed along with their purpose for being.

I agree, the occupation of Iraq is making them hostile, but leaving wouldn't help until they're stabilized. Again, if we leave we will have no intelligence there. With no intelligence they'll be able to freely gather and plot an attack on America.

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

I am talking about the Taliban who were forbeably removed from the Middle East during the Gulf War.

So an imaginary Taliban? Did you notice the part where I claimed that the United States was SUPPORTING the Taliban during the years of the Gulf War? They were opposing communism by resisting soviet inroads into afghanistan, so the US was actually a big fan.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Even if the Taliban and the United States did see eye to eye about it as you claim, it was only because of the post Cold War feelings of communism and the Red Scare.

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Um...so you just admitted that you were incorrect? Good of you. Moving right along.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

That was a pointless post. Yes, i admitted I was wrong. Next perspective?

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Well it's just that you phrased it as though you were still making a seperate point like "Yeah, that's as well as may be, but what about THIS!" except your 'this' didn't actually say anything seperate from what we already said, so I expressed my confusion.

Perhaps you can give me some non-taliban related reasons why leaving Iraq is a horrible bad idea?

[Zythus]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Zythus' Rule. You Lose.

(Lol, since there isn't a wikipedia establish rule about mentioning Bush and Iraq fiasco on electronic communication, I took the liberty to make my own rule on par with Godwin's rule. Nor is this the first time bush and Iraq has been mentioned in any of the CT threads, its becoming like Hiter. Eh Devonin?)

Anyhow, I fail to have any contribution to this thread besides establishing a revolutionary new rule. I guess mainly because I'm not hyped about the whole US election. Now I shall go write an article on wikipedia.

...Yeah....Shut Up...

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Eh, I'm okay with the focus of the discussion developing as the thread goes on.

[rzr]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

Well it's just that you phrased it as though you were still making a seperate point like "Yeah, that's as well as may be, but what about THIS!" except your 'this' didn't actually say anything seperate from what we already said, so I expressed my confusion.

Perhaps you can give me some non-taliban related reasons why leaving Iraq is a horrible bad idea?

lol, sorry if it came across that way.

Well, in my opinion, if America leaves Iraq it would collapse. The government it has now is fragile and new, so it's unstable as is. At least with American occupation we can make it moderately safer than without us.

But that's not my main argument. My point is... I can only really describe it in an example.

A group of people decide now the America is gone from their home land they will attack now to avenge their fallen fathers in the Gulf War. So they do. They gain nucleur weapons and wipe out the entire continent. All because America left Iraq and wasn't watching them as closely as they were before.

Do you see my point of view now?

[devonin]

Re: If Hillary Clinton gets elected...

I think that the mere idea that a -nation- entity is going to attack another one with nuclear weapons given the mutually assured destruction that would face any country that tried it is pretty ridiculous in the current political climate.

And since it is going to be a non-governmental organisation that would ever try it, the presence of Americans in Iraq isn't going to make any difference, they'd just buy their weapons from another country entirely. US Can't be in -every- country at once to make sure nobody is planning anything.

The last attack was carried out by egyptians and saudi arabians with afghani support. Iraq doesn't seem to be the problem there.