Infinity and our Existence

[sujishishou]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

in in infinite universe,
nothing you say or do has any meaning or purpose.
it is just a set of events that occurred randomly.
its all just random data.
our existance is just meh.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

If a universe is truely infinite, perhaps space is being made or something. I don't know if there is any edge or anything, but if space was somehow infinite, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there is no other life. Even if right now we are the only life forms, if the universe was infinite, wouldn't that mean that if infinity is the way I see it or could possibly imagine it (a sequence that keeps adding or in the terms of a galaxy, space keeps on being made by a sequence [not neccessarily a sequence that goes in any order] though that would leave the thought of what space has not made yet or what is beyond this space), that would mean that a planet or galaxy at any given time could eventually be made to have life forms.

[Falco_L]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

All I really mean is that in the infinity of our universe there has to be other life, another solar system where a planet formed just right for life to form, somewhere in this infinity we live in.

This is not necessarily true. Yes, I agree that with respect to our insignificance, the universe is essentially infinite. However, it is also possible that the probability of such life appearing anywhere in the universe is vanishingly small, as to be infinitesimal. If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one. This sort of limit is seen in fields such as relativity; it is why photons can have momentum as massless particles.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here and pointing out a common misconception.

[Adamaja456]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

This is not necessarily true. Yes, I agree that with respect to our insignificance, the universe is essentially infinite. However, it is also possible that the probability of such life appearing anywhere in the universe is vanishingly small, as to be infinitesimal. If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one. This sort of limit is seen in fields such as relativity; it is why photons can have momentum as massless particles.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here and pointing out a common misconception.

I am just a little confused on one part of this.

" If the number of instances of life in the universe is proportional to the product of the volume of space and the probability of life appearing per unit volume, the limit as one goes to infinity and the other goes to zero can, in fact, be a finite number, perhaps one."

I strongly believe that space in infinite. So how can you make the probability using the volume of something that is infinitely big? I dont see how you can say one goes to infinity. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this topic =]

[Hollus]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

I believe that there is other life in the universe. The universe is huge, and I think there is a possibility of life on other planets, even in our extremely hostile universe. After all, we've only become to search for extra-solar planets recently because they're very hard to find. (They don't produce or reflect much light, gravity is negligible compared to stars, etc.) There's a lot of possibilities out there, and we shouldn't dismiss the existence of other lifeforms or even intelligent beings so easily.

[Reach]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

The Univere IS infinite

Incorrect. At least with respect to our universe. All WMAP observations confirm with great detail the big bang, and that the universe is still expanding. Since the universe is still observably expanding, by definition it is not infinite as it is bound by the finite rate of expansion.

[Falco_L]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

I strongly believe that space in infinite. So how can you make the probability using the volume of something that is infinitely big? I dont see how you can say one goes to infinity. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this topic =]

You can use the probability per unit volume of something with near infinite volume by multiplying my something which is near zero. The two will "cancel out" and produce a finite number. You can think of this as a limit:

For instance, 1 x 1 = 1.
Also, 10 x .1 = 1.
Also, 100 x .01 = 1.

You can imagine what would happen if you kept making the first number bigger and the second one smaller, proportionally. Eventually, one would approach infinity and the other would approach zero, but the product would still be 1. This is a relatively simple concept of calculus (the concept of a limit).

I hope this answers your question; I'm not entirely sure I understood what you were asking.

[Hollus]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

Incorrect. At least with respect to our universe. All WMAP observations confirm with great detail the big bang, and that the universe is still expanding. Since the universe is still observably expanding, by definition it is not infinite as it is bound by the finite rate of expansion.

Reach is correct. However, even the distance between our planet and the nearest star is mind boggling. When you think about the billions (trillions?) of stars in our universe, all the planets and galaxies, it goes beyond human comprehension. Its easily to say " 100 light years", but when you of it in terms of " 100 km/h for 99999 years" or whatever, it gets a little harder to think about. The universe IS huge, even if it isn't truly infinite, it easily exceeds the limits of our imagination. There's a lot of space out there.

(Unfortunately, Falco_L is incorrect. No matter how large the first number gets, it won't even come a tiny bit close to infinity, just like the second number never gets to zero either.)

[ledwix]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

If you are a supporter of the Big Bang Theory, the universe cannot be infinite:

-A "definite" amount of mass equal to the mass of today's universe should have existed at time = 0 seconds, if the Conservation of Mass works.
-An infinite amount of universe space means that there is an infinite amount of mass in the universe.
-An infinite mass at one point cannot be accelerated outward, since gravitational force is also infinite.
-String theory would be the only way to refute through science, but I'm not sure how far we can go when examining things on the order of 10^-35 meters.

Also, on the topic of extraterrestrials:
-If there is any chance above zero that life on other planets exists, and the universe is infinite, then life on other planets exists, because the chances of it existing are infinitely close to 100%. If you are an evolutionist, then the chances of life emerging from non-life is above zero, since this world is an obvious example of life. Therefore, an infinite universe would mean an infinite number of alien civilizations under those circumstances.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

Reach is correct. However, even the distance between our planet and the nearest star is mind boggling. When you think about the billions (trillions?) of stars in our universe, all the planets and galaxies, it goes beyond human comprehension. Its easily to say " 100 light years", but when you of it in terms of " 100 km/h for 99999 years" or whatever, it gets a little harder to think about. The universe IS huge, even if it isn't truly infinite, it easily exceeds the limits of our imagination. There's a lot of space out there.

Yeah, but it's not infinite. At least, we don't have any solid evidence to either make that claim, nor deny it.

Again, to make another nonsensical claim that can't be proved, why stop at a Universe? Why can't there exist a Multiverse? I mean, quantum physics has shown that matter keeps getting smaller and smaller and astronomy has shown that even galaxies cluster together.

[Hollus]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

Yeah, but it's not infinite. At least, we don't have any solid evidence to either make that claim, nor deny it.

Again, to make another nonsensical claim that can't be proved, why stop at a Universe? Why can't there exist a Multiverse? I mean, quantum physics has shown that matter keeps getting smaller and smaller and astronomy has shown that even galaxies cluster together.

The universe isn't infinite, but the distances involved are just so huge. Maybe there is a multiverse, or an infinite amount of finite "universes". That makes sense, in a poetic sort of way. But, of course, not provable. Now, anyways.

[Smok3y]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

If anything is infinite, like the universe, would there even be a way to prove it? Seems unlikely... I like the idea of it being finite though, it'd be interesting the learn what the "borders" are like.

[Falco_L]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

Incorrect. At least with respect to our universe. All WMAP observations confirm with great detail the big bang, and that the universe is still expanding. Since the universe is still observably expanding, by definition it is not infinite as it is bound by the finite rate of expansion.

I would like to point out, simply as a very interesting thought, that even though the universe seems huge, the only observations we have of it are of the visible universe, limited in size by the speed of light. The actual size of the entire universe may be billions of times larger than what we are able to observe. We can only see objects which are close enough to us such that light coming from them has had time to reach us; this distance is approximately 15 billion light years, the age of the universe according to current evidence. This is also why the visible universe is expanding at exactly the speed of light.

This leads to still other very interesting things which I would love to go on about here, but it would take too much space and it's not relevant to the topic.

[Adamaja456]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

Incorrect. At least with respect to our universe. All WMAP observations confirm with great detail the big bang, and that the universe is still expanding. Since the universe is still observably expanding, by definition it is not infinite as it is bound by the finite rate of expansion.

Yes, the universe is still expanding but have we charted the end of the universe? I'm not sure how far into Space NASA has seen with powerful telescopes and satellites but until theres some sort of proof to the "end of space" its easier to think of space as infinite

Also, since the universe IS expanding, i can see where its easy to think there must be parameters but think about this.


Think of the universe as a balloon. It starts out as a little dot and constantly grows larger and larger. But think that the balloon can expand to infinity. Although it may look like theres parameters to the universe, it still seems to expand and get bigger. Wouldnt this make the Universe infinite?

EDIT: "Eventually, one would approach infinity and the other would approach zero, but the product would still be 1"

i thought any number times 0 would produce 0. So wouldnt Infinity x 0 = 0 not 1?
But your logic does seem to make sense.

[Reach]

Re: Infinity and our Existence

I would like to point out, simply as a very interesting thought, that even though the universe seems huge, the only observations we have of it are of the visible universe, limited in size by the speed of light

Well, yes. We're now actually pretty sure the visible universe is significantly larger than simply the age multiplied by the speed of light though, because of inflation. But yes there could be any amount of 'space' outside of what we can see right now.

Yes, the universe is still expanding but have we charted the end of the universe? I'm not sure how far into Space NASA has seen with powerful telescopes and satellites but until theres some sort of proof to the "end of space" its easier to think of space as infinite

Also, since the universe IS expanding, i can see where its easy to think there must be parameters but think about this.

You don't need to chart the end of the universe. If something is expanding quantifiably, by definition it is not infinite. It's as simple as that. Why? Unless the rate of expansion is infinity, the universe will always have a measurable, finite size if it is expanding quantifiably.

But uh, either way I think WMAP can see the whole universe using old light. It is generally understood that the universe is finite but has no physical boundary. That is, you are never going to get to somewhere and hit a wall or see the end of space. It doesn't work that way...think of it like earth where you'll just keep going around and around. The difference here being up into the sky is another dimension we're incapable of perceiving, and thus cannot leave the universe.

To imagine this you have to put yourself in the higher dimension. We are like stick figures drawn onto a paper ball. We don't have the spatial capacity to leave the paper ball, yet although the ball appears two dimensional to us, it is actually three dimensional.

Think of the universe as a balloon. It starts out as a little dot and constantly grows larger and larger. But think that the balloon can expand to infinity. Although it may look like theres parameters to the universe, it still seems to expand and get bigger. Wouldnt this make the Universe infinite?

The problem here is you can't expand to infinity, so no this wouldn't make the balloon infinite. If you can measure the space inside the balloon at any given time, it is not infinite. In order for the balloon to be infinite it would have to reach a state of infinitely fast expansion.

And uh, that would destroy the universe so it's out of the question It is a rather well known problem for us now, that in around 50 billion years or so the universe is going to be expanding far too fast for energy to maintain the state we know it as. Thankfully we won't be around for the universal annihilation though ;o