Metaphysics LOL?

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

PS I advise anyone reading this thread to check these two videos out. They are well worth the full listen, especially the second one

1. The God Hypothesis (The God Delusion, Chapter II): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TChreC1dt5w

2. Middle World (The Mother Of All Burqas): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QI3Vg0kpYE

[Reach]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Wow, this thread exploded. I'll comment on just one thing on the last page :P

I think where most people get confused with randomness is the notion that "these complex things couldn't have possibly happened by chance or randomness."

I'd agree, insanely complex systems are unlikely to appear entirely by chance.

However, evolution is again very slow and non-random.

Indeed, evolution is very much so a non-random process. However, I would like to add 2 things:

1. It's not necessarily slow. Rate of change depends entirely on reproduction rates and evolutionary pressures.

2. Many people interpret improbability to be impossibility, but in the case where some outcome x is inevitable, this is a vast misinterpretation of the situation.

Consider dice for example. Roll it 100 times, and write the result out each time. You'll end up with a 100 digit number. Now, if you want, calculate out the probability of rolling exactly that number.

Ok, don't actually do it, but the probability is infinitesimally small. However, you rolled that number anyway.

People make this error all the time, and it's usually called hindsight bias, but it's not a valid argument. To say something like 'it's unlikely and therefore didn't happen' when some outcome was inevitable anyway doesn't hold. Just like with the dice...SOME 100 digit number had to be rolled. Assuming the conditions were right for life, some outcome x was inevitable.

Combine with this with what we know about convergent evolution and there's a lot less chance involved in the fact that we're here than most people would think.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I'm okay with a non-random evolution. But many other people say it's random, and that's what bothered me so much. I don't say it's impossible, but I think that saying something extremely unlikely is a coincidence without even considering another alternative can be too forced. Anyway, I still believe in God because of things I can't express, bye.

EDIT:
By the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew.
It's pretty interesting, even though we don't believe in exactly the same things.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I'm okay with a non-random evolution. But many other people say it's random, and that's what bothered me so much. I don't say it's impossible, but I think that saying something extremely unlikely is a coincidence without even considering another alternative can be too forced. Anyway, I still believe in God because of things I can't express, bye.

EDIT:
By the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew.
It's pretty interesting, even though we don't believe in exactly the same things.

There are many ways things can evolve. We just happened to evolve along this particular path. It's not a coincidence we evolve -- we had to evolve SOMEHOW since conditions on this planet were sufficient for life.

And people who say evolution is random are very much incorrect. I mean, random chance and luck are things that so many people misunderstand on a day to day basis.

We say "random," practically speaking, only when something is too hard to predict because there are so many variables involved that we can't really measure or observe, leading to uncertainty. I have to consider the roll of a die to be "random," since there are so many things that alter what number I get (force I apply to the die, where I let go of it in the air, perhaps the sweat on my hand, air resistance, gravity, initial orientation of the die, composition of the die, etc). We call a roll of a die "random" (even though it technically isn't) because there's really no way for us to tell with full certainty what we'll get because there are too many factors involved that we cannot measure easily without extremely sophisticated tools.

This is why I think people get confused. Much like the roll of a die, mutations within a generation might be "random." But the process of natural selection is very much deterministic. The hawks with the better wings will be faster, catch more food, and survive/reproduce more than hawks with lesser wings. Creatures with better claws and teeth are better equipped to fight than creatures who have lesser features are. These outcomes should be no surprise: If you saw a population of creatures, all with certain features, all living in certain environments, you can argue which creatures will survive more easily. Why? Because figuring out who survives and who doesn't is not based on chance, but the consequences of who has the better attributes for their environment.

Considering how much time the universe has existed, and considering how many planets out there can have life, it's really no surprise that we exist. It's not a coincidence, but an inevitable, unavoidable consequence. When conditions for life are present, we know something's going to live. And we know that those lifeforms that evolve and change as they reproduce are going to turn into SOMETHING.

Why do we think we're such inherently special creatures? Because we've evolved with such an advanced brain to the point where we can attach meaning to things and rationalize our existence and environment. If you didn't have this type of brain, you wouldn't even care. I'm sure a dog doesn't contemplate its origin too much, but it sure as hell exists all the same. Don't forget, we had dinosaurs before us, too. They were around for 165 million years, with various species constantly forming, going extinct, evolving, etc.

I mean, hey, say sup to the birds for me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_birds

"I don't say it's impossible, but I think that saying something extremely unlikely is a coincidence without even considering another alternative can be too forced."

I hope this post made this concept easier to understand, at least. If our universe only had two planets, then yeah, we probably wouldn't exist, because there are only so many types of planets that support life. But we have TONS of planets that can in our huge universe. Out of all those planets, you're going to have TONS of creature types, all of varying features and intellects. Yes, it is "unlikely" to look at a creature and say "you will take this particular evolutionary path," since we don't know what it will become. The probability of my offspring eventually evolving into blue frogs with wings and horns is just too small to matter. But that isn't the point. With so many planets and so many evolutionary pathways taken, some of those pathways will lead to intelligent creatures that can rationalize their existence. We are one of the results of such a pathway in our universe. There are likely (with, effectively, 100% certainty) many more out there.

[Grandiagod]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I dismiss Darwin's theory as "not even a low grade hypothesis" and said it had "no substantial science" in it. "The Bible says God created the Earth in six days and I flat believe that. There are over 100 ways science is able to look at the Earth and 90 say it is thousands of years old - only 10 say it's real old. The way liberals and evolutionists win an argument is to outlaw freedom of speech... they won't let us in. Why is Darwin buried with kings at Westminster Abbey? He's not a king. He's the king of the atheists' movement, of people who don't want to deal with the guilt that's put on them by sin... it's a weight and a bondage, they become their own God.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

lmao

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

mhss1992: Out of curiosity -- given this evidence what is your take on God?

(Not trying to convert you or anything, I am just asking out of curiosity)

[Grandiagod]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

God is the Alpha and the Omega, the ultimate righteous shepherd and he takes care of his flock. Nothing moves without his say so. I guess the bottom line is GOD IS IN CONTROL. There is not one baby that comes into the world that God did not give to us. Whether or not we have the resources is not the point. If we seek God's will for our lives, He will take care of us, PERIOD. Doesn't matter if we have one or twenty kids. He will provide. I don't worry about the world anymore because it's out of my control. Even conceiving children is out of my control. Thank the Lord I'm not in control of these things. Praise God.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

mhss1992: Out of curiosity -- given this evidence what is your take on God?

(Not trying to convert you or anything, I am just asking out of curiosity)

Well, like I said, it's not just because of the complexity of things that I believe in God. In fact, I always accepted darwinism really fine, I just started to question it some months ago.
I've had experiences before. No, not paranormal experiences. I've had thoughts that led me to believe that the simple fact that we exist indicates a meaning, or an intelligence. Just the fact that we are beings that actually experience all of this, and not only automatic things like biological robots, because even though a robot can react to something, it doesn't feel it. It's really strange when you stop, during a common moment in your life, and just looks at everything as if all were new, wondering how existence is possible. It's a sort of "higher state" (but with no drugs), and it's really powerful. And (again) that thing I was trying to explain really means something that can't be summarized very easily with the words I know.
I know that probably doesn't mean much to you, but it's a strong reason for my beliefs.

EDIT:
There's also something that I want to be clear. I don't believe in the Bible. I do believe in the Big Bang and etc. Believing in God doesn't imply in being religious, and the existence of God doesn't imply in the science being wrong, at all. God is not bible, nor religion.

[dore]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Grandiagod you're a ****face for saying something like that in every thread that even mentions a god

clearly everyone who believes in a god is a religious zealot

**** you

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

It's really strange when you stop, during a common moment in your life, and just looks at everything as if all were new, wondering how existence is possible. It's a sort of "higher state" (but with no drugs), and it's really powerful.

I can definitely relate to this -- the last time I did this, I was standing in the middle of a walkway between my dorm and the grocery store. I was watching people playing frisbee in the big field, people walking in and out of the strip of food joints on the other side of the street, cars driving by, the sun shining, the trees moving in and out of the sunlight, etc. I couldn't help but think that the act of me simply standing there and witnessing/interpreting all this was something pretty awesome. It was one of those times where I was very grateful to be alive, as corny as that sounds. It's always fun to think about where we could have come from and how existence is possible.

What always gets me is what it would be like for the universe to not exist. I suppose it would be a lot like dying and not having an afterlife, but I mean what it would be like for not even the material universe to exist. No matter, no time, nothing. If "nothing" is was came before the Big Bang, that also blows my mind because I don't know why "nothing" would suddenly spawn existence like this. I've never really had a good answer, for instance, why atoms are the way that they are.

Thing is, no matter which view I take, I'm not satisfied with it when it comes to the origin of existence. Is there even an origin? That question has bothered me for such a long time. I feel fairly confident in my views about the current universe we live in, and our own lives and so forth, but when it comes to the origins... I get a huge mind-crunch and it's all just full of contradictions and headaches.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I understand your preference for atheism because I often see that people from your culture (and mine too, but I see that a lot in movies and stuff) directly conceives God as related to religions or as something against science. I think I have a more open-minded view of God because it doesn't conflict with science at all, it's just something else.

[dore]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I can definitely relate to this -- the last time I did this, I was standing in the middle of a walkway between my dorm and the grocery store. I was watching people playing frisbee in the big field, people walking in and out of the strip of food joints on the other side of the street, cars driving by, the sun shining, the trees moving in and out of the sunlight, etc. I couldn't help but think that the act of me simply standing there and witnessing/interpreting all this was something pretty awesome. It was one of those times where I was very grateful to be alive, as corny as that sounds. It's always fun to think about where we could have come from and how existence is possible.

What always gets me is what it would be like for the universe to not exist. I suppose it would be a lot like dying and not having an afterlife, but I mean what it would be like for not even the material universe to exist. No matter, no time, nothing. If "nothing" is what came before the Big Bang, that also blows my mind because I don't know why "nothing" would suddenly spawn existence like this. I've never really had a good answer, for instance, why atoms are the way that they are.

Thing is, no matter which view I take, I'm not satisfied with it when it comes to the origin of existence. Is there even an origin? That question has bothered me for such a long time. I feel fairly confident in my views about the current universe we live in, and our own lives and so forth, but when it comes to the origins... I get a huge mind-crunch and it's all just full of contradictions and headaches.

That's pretty much precisely why I believe in some sort of intelligent, outside force creating our universe. It seems like we have to be part of an imperceptible something else because how can something come from nothing? Then again, believing in an imperceptible outside force raises just as many questions but limiting ourselves to what we can perceive hasn't found an answer and simply can't because there's no way to know for certain what came before the big bang.

[Grandiagod]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Grandiagod you're a ****face for saying something like that in every thread that even mentions a god

clearly everyone who believes in a god is a religious zealot

**** you

The best way to assure people that you are rational is to call them a ****face.

[dore]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

i didnt feel the need to go above your intelligence level