Metaphysics LOL?

[MrRubix]

In this thread, we shall talk about life, the universe, and everything.

I'll continue my post shortly from where it left off in the IQ thread for the sake of keeping on topic.

[leonid]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

42

[leonid]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Problem solved

[Reach]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Glad to get that out of the other thread.

Like I said (again), those are not the only reasons why I believe in God.
Why can't this "irreducibly complex portion of reality" contain intelligence?

Why WOULD it contain intelligence, when intelligence is organized complexity? How much intelligence do you see in the universe compared to how much there is in the universe? Not much. For billions and billions of years the universe was without intelligence. It evolved through a laborious process of increasing complexity in isolated areas over time. Why, then, would intelligence exist in an irreducibly complex system?

Unless of course you mean something else by intelligence, in which case this is just a semantic debate.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

This is a very, very, very, very simple way of expressing part of my theory about something called "observer".

1- Close your eyes. Pay attention only to the blackness in front of you. It's the 2D space for images. Try to imagine this space disappearing.
What happens when you die? Will you live in eternal blackness? How can there be blackness without a space for images?
2- If several babies are born at the same time, why is your first person perspective coming from only one of them? What, materially speaking, defines that? If I create an identical clone of you after you die and copy all your memories into it, will your mind remain dead or will you live in the clone's body? Every year, 98% of your body's atoms are exchanged, so where's the "first person"?

I hope this makes sense to someone.

By the way: Am I the only deist in this community?

[Reach]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

This is a very, very, very, very simple way of expressing part of my theory about something called "observer".

1- Close your eyes. Pay attention only to the blackness in front of you. It's the 2D space for images. Try to imagine this space disappearing.
What happens when you die? Will you live in eternal blackness? How can there be blackness without a space for images?
2- If several identical babies are born at the same time, why is your first person perspective coming from only one of them? What, materially speaking, defines that? If I create an identical clone of you after you die and copy all your memories into it, will your mind remain dead or will you live in the clone's body? Every year, 98% of your body's atoms are exchanged, so where's the "first person"?

I hope this makes sense to someone.

This is all fine and dandy but doesn't address any of the points I just made.

I'll address yours anyway.

1. What happens when you die? Well, what happens when an anesthesiologist puts you to sleep? Ditto. You don't 'live in eternal blackness' because you're not living at all.

With respect to imagining no space at all, obviously you can't do that. There is no such thing as 'no space' because if it was something, it wouldn't be no space. Actually, this is a part of my argument as to why something exists rather than nothing.

2-Because your eyes are attached to you and only you, which is attached to your brain and only your brain? Materially speaking, your mental representation of reality derives itself from what is happening inside of your brain.

If you copied me and *I* died, I would obviously remain dead. My copy would live on.

By the way: Am I the only deist in this community?

No.

How can you say that something is not plausible because it has no physical proof? You are almost asuming that only the physical things we see exist. If you don't know it, you can't say that it's not plausible. There are thousands of reports of kids who remember detailed events about dead people, and many other things.

Because if it were plausible you'd be able to find evidence to support why it would be plausible.

Think of playing a game of Texas Holdem. How do you know it's highly plausible that you'll win if you have an Ace Ace pair? Because you have evidence. Nobody believes things are plausible without evidence or reason for them being plausible...except in the case of the metaphysical it seems :P

If I don't know it, I can't say it's not *POSSIBLE*, but plausible? No. Look at the definition of plausible: "apparently reasonable and valid, and truthful" - obviously for it to be plausible I would need some reason to believe it first.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

1. What happens when you die? Well, what happens when an anesthesiologist puts you to sleep? Ditto. You don't 'live in eternal blackness' because you're not living at all.

With respect to imagining no space at all, obviously you can't do that. There is no such thing as 'no space' because if it was something, it wouldn't be no space. Actually, this is a part of my argument as to why something exists rather than nothing.

2-Because your eyes are attached to you and only you, which is attached to your brain and only your brain? Materially speaking, your mental representation of reality derives itself from what is happening inside of your brain.

If you copied me and *I* died, I would obviously remain dead. My copy would live on.

1- If there's still a space, what is this space? Didn't the material body die? how can there be a space?

2- You really didn't get it. Why is your brain yours? I mean, before you were born, what would define that the first person that is currently feeling this would be at Reach's brain and not in some girl's brain in India? I MEAN, Reach would still be reading this, but it would be like a "third person" to you, why not?

So, what is *You*, considering it's a identical copy? What about the 98% atoms thing?

[jchinzilla]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

oh so dying is just like being put to sleep by an anesthesiologist, thanks for the info reach

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

This is a very, very, very, very simple way of expressing part of my theory about something called "observer".

1- Close your eyes. Pay attention only to the blackness in front of you. It's the 2D space for images. Try to imagine this space disappearing.
What happens when you die? Will you live in eternal blackness? How can there be blackness without a space for images?
2- If several babies are born at the same time, why is your first person perspective coming from only one of them? What, materially speaking, defines that? If I create an identical clone of you after you die and copy all your memories into it, will your mind remain dead or will you live in the clone's body? Every year, 98% of your body's atoms are exchanged, so where's the "first person"?

I hope this makes sense to someone.

By the way: Am I the only deist in this community?

The blackness in my eyes is the backs of my eyelids, so I am not quite sure what you're after there. But you should be able to answer that for yourself. What was your life like before you were born? I think death is a lot like that. You don't even "sense" a blackness. There's nothing. Without an active brain, you are not interpreting anything. It's a weird concept because, like you said, you are alive and you know you exist, and therefore the notion of not existing or experiencing "an absence of blackness" doesn't make much sense.

It's similar to the notion that you can't see out of your arm. Why can't you? You don't have eyeballs there. There's no sense there for sight. When you die, there's no sense for hearing, touch, smell, sight, taste, or thought. Again, think back to what it was like before you were born. You don't remember anything about it for a reason :P You didn't exist. The components that made up your body were in all sorts of places and were eventually synthesized through reproductive processes, but this also includes your brain. Material components by themselves are not sentient and they do not think, but together they can synthesize a biological "machine" that is able to. When that machine fails, all functions cease.

As for your baby question, I bring up my computer example again. Computer A is Computer A because it's composed that way. If I create a human, it's not like it's dead unless a "soul" or "essence" suddenly occupies it. It's alive and human because it's made up of biological components that allow for life to function. You gain the "perspective" that you do simply because the parts that compose you have created that perspective.

"But why did I not get born as, say, Bill Clinton? Why am I me?"

The parts that made Bill Clinton came together to make Bill Clinton. The parts that came together to make you made you.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

And yes, about your clone example, I echo Reach on that one. If I died, *I* would be gone. My perspective would cease. My clone would have its own perspective, but it would simply have my memories and mind and physical makeup. It'd be like me buying another identical computer and transferring over the data of my hard drive. It's the same computer in every way, shape, and form, but it's not really the original computer.

[Reach]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

oh so dying is just like being put to sleep by an anesthesiologist, thanks for the info reach

Well, what you see and perceive is a function of what's happening in your brain. This is really non disputable in the neuroscience community - maybe in a Church, but I'm talking science here, not mysticism.

When you die, your brain isn't working any more. So what happens is analogous of being put to sleep in that it's the absence of any cognition. If you'd like to argue otherwise, please, by all means do so, but I don't think you can distinguish between being put to sleep and dying, since both are the absence of cognitive awareness - the only difference is the anesthesiologist eventually wakes you up :P

1- If there's still a space, what is this space? Didn't the material body die? how can there be a space?

2- You really didn't get it. Why is your brain yours? I mean, before you were born, what would define that the first person that is currently feeling this would be at Reach's brain and not in some girl's brain in India? I MEAN, Reach would still be reading this, but it would be like a "third person" to you, why not?

So, what is *You*, considering it's a identical copy? What about the 98% atoms thing?

1-There wouldn't be a space when you're dead, because you lack any cognitive awareness. I was talking about how you couldn't imagine the absence of space while ALIVE.

2- My brain is mine because it's in my physical body. What you're saying doesn't make sense. Clarify.

*I* would be the brain located in my current physical body, which is located in the exact position I'm currently typing this message from.

Mr. Rubix also said a lot of things I agree with. This, in particular -> "It'd be like me buying another identical computer and transferring over the data of my hard drive. It's the same computer in every way, shape, and form, but it's not really the original computer."

As for the 98% atoms thing, why don't you give me a scientific reference for that so I can at least validate the claim first.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I think what he is asking is why are you YOU and why aren't you someone else?

Again, I think it's simply because of our components. If you create a working brain in a working human, someone's got to be at the helm, right? Thing is, that "someone" is actually the brain. We ARE what we're made of. It doesn't make sense to say "why weren't you born as someone in India" because that person in India was formed from specific parts through specific processes independent of your parts and processes. You are making the assumption that our "perspective" is some kind of external entity looking out through a physical shell, but really, we ARE that physical shell, and that physical shell is what CREATES our perspective through the brain.

Why is a Toshiba laptop a Toshiba? Because, well, it's made by Toshiba -- it wasn't made by Dell.

[Reach]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I think what he is asking is why are you YOU and why aren't you someone else?

I figured he was arguing something else, because the answer to this should be plainly obvious. I'm me and not anyone else because if I was someone else I wouldn't be me. It's a self evident tautology.

Or alternatively, you can give an example as you just did. Thank you :P

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

While that is true, I can see why one would ask that question if they don't quite think of human perspective as something created entirely by the brain.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Ok, let's talk about the blackness, because the 2nd part is just too hard for me to express, especially considering English is not my native language. But I do mean something.

The blackness in my eyes is the backs of my eyelids, so I am not quite sure what you're after there. But you should be able to answer that for yourself. What was your life like before you were born? I think death is a lot like that. You don't even "sense" a blackness. There's nothing. Without an active brain, you are not interpreting anything. It's a weird concept because, like you said, you are alive and you know you exist, and therefore the notion of not existing or experiencing "an absence of blackness" doesn't make much sense.

I am referring to the space. There is a 2d space where image occurs, and that is why we can call the absence of images "blackness", because the space still exists.

Think about it: can a space disappear or appear? When did it appear? In what moment was your mind a "no space" and then it suddenly became a "space"?
After you die, just what happens to the space? "Nothing" doesn't answer anything. Try to "erase" a space. It's impossible. There's always something behind it, isn't there?