Metaphysics LOL?

[ieatyourlvllol]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Just a bit of input on some stuff from the IQ thread

It's not just about the complexity of everything, it's something more like: I have existed in this world for a few years. I don't know everything. The reality that I know is inside my mind, I really don't know if there's anything else beyond my mind, I don't even know if you exist. Now, this is solipsistic and probably has nothing to do with the subject, but...
If you stop for a while and try to see the world as something new, strange, ignoring every concept you have about it, it really makes you wonder how existence is possible.

Methinks you're starting to edge into the area between metaphysics and epistemology.

So, it exists by virtue of the fact that less than that couldn't exist. I'm not sure I like your use of 'source of existence', since I wouldn't argue existence has any 'sources' per say but exists by virtue of something being there, and I don't see why this would be logically inconsistent.

I think respectively replacing "(source of) existence" and "object" with "cause" and "effect" still conveys the general message in the given context.

Oh come on, it ended long ago with the experiments in neuroscience demonstrating the outcome of our thoughts/actions is determined prior to our will to act/think. It's determinism, baby.

It seems that way, at least from a physical (and psychological) standpoint. However, philosophy has yet to resolve the perceptual dimension of the issue, which contains the most relevance for humankind. At this point, though, we're venturing into different territory (human perception of personal conscious states w/ the additional component of time), and semantics starts playing a role in how we wish to define the stances we might espouse.

If I create an identical clone of you after you die and copy all your memories into it, will your mind remain dead or will you live in the clone's body?

Theoretically, a clone could sustain a person's unique existence if and only if it inhabited the exact space and time from which the original person left off. In that case, however, it would not be a clone (by common definition) at all, but rather, an extension of your existence across the dimension of time (i.e. YOU). In other words, you constantly exist as a present self that is a "clone" of your past self (reflecting, of course, the advent of change within time). That's where the idea of "identity via bodily continuity" is derived from.

Every year, 98% of your body's atoms are exchanged, so where's the "first person"?

A common answer to this question is to imagine a large wooden boat out at sea. Every once in a while, some planks fall off and are subsequently replaced. At some point, all the planks will have been replaced. Is the boat still the same? Maybe not physically, but we still call it the same boat due to the continuity explained above.

[Flaming_Dingleberry]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Oh Jesus this is a thread of madness. To contribute what little I'm willing to write, I share the perspectives of Reach and Rubix. Thinking of death as life with your eyes closed is... well it sounds semi-retarded to me :/ Think of how you feel when unconscious, asleep, how you felt before you were born; you don't and you didn't. This thread reminds me of a question I came up with long ago, "Were you dead before you were born?" If someone has an opinion on that, do tell Everything Rubix just said in reply to mhss1992 explains everything too well, I'm not going any further with it. If that's not enough explanation, nothing is. I believe in "a" God (not from any specific religion). I believe there is some high power, but I'm not saying I'm right. I can't think of one reason for me to try explaining why there is a God without me having any evidence. I "believe" in God. if you want to know why "I believe" in God, you can ask why, but don't ask my why there is a God, I don't know if there is. Also, being born as one person and not another is an inevitable process. Why was I born as "Wes" instead of "Sally"? If I were born as "Sally" I would ask the same thing. I'm thinking you believe in essences and souls and whatnot, so I'll even answer it in THAT perspective. Since we can only be born as one person, maybe I WAS born as "Wes" instead of "Sally", I just don't know it.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Ok, let's talk about the blackness, because the 2nd part is just too hard for me to express, especially considering English is not my native language. But I do mean something.



I am referring to the space. There is a 2d space where image occurs, and that is why we can call the absence of images "blackness", because the space still exists.

Think about it: can a space disappear or appear? When did it appear? In what moment was your mind a "no space" and then it suddenly became a "space"?
After you die, just what happens to the space? "Nothing" doesn't answer anything. Try to "erase" a space. It's impossible. There's always something behind it, isn't there?

I understand what you're trying to express with the 2nd part -- please read above and let me know what you think.

As for space disappearing, I do not understand what you mean there. It seems like you've answered it yourself. You're trying to make the assumption that you can sense an absence of sense, which isn't possible. Again, if you want to know what "nothing" is like, think back to before you were born. That is what nonexistence and non-functioning is like, and we probably go right back to that when we no longer function again, in my opinion.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Thinking of death as life with your eyes closed is... well it sounds semi-retarded to me :/

I'm really not saying that death is life with closed eyes, I was referring to the space where images occur.

I understand what you're trying to express with the 2nd part -- please read above and let me know what you think.

As for space disappearing, I do not understand what you mean there. It seems like you've answered it yourself. You're trying to make the assumption that you can sense an absence of sense, which isn't possible. Again, if you want to know what "nothing" is like, think back to before you were born. That is what nonexistence and non-functioning is like, and we probably go right back to that when we no longer function again, in my opinion.

Ok, just forget about life and death for a second.
Can a space disappear or appear? There is a paper on a table, if I destroy the paper, there will still be the space where the paper was.
If someone destroys your eyes and the part of your brain that's responsible for vision, will there still be a space for blackness or there will be nothing? If something appeared for you, perceptions, aren't there spaces for these things?

Sorry if I sound repetitive or retarded, a similar thing happened in a Philosophy forum not too long ago, it's frustrating, but I really want people to understand my thoughts.

I think what he is asking is why are you YOU and why aren't you someone else?

Again, I think it's simply because of our components. If you create a working brain in a working human, someone's got to be at the helm, right? Thing is, that "someone" is actually the brain. We ARE what we're made of. It doesn't make sense to say "why weren't you born as someone in India" because that person in India was formed from specific parts through specific processes independent of your parts and processes. You are making the assumption that our "perspective" is some kind of external entity looking out through a physical shell, but really, we ARE that physical shell, and that physical shell is what CREATES our perspective through the brain.

Why is a Toshiba laptop a Toshiba? Because, well, it's made by Toshiba -- it wasn't made by Dell.

I know MrRubix is MrRubix. But what I mean is that MrRubix would still be MrRubix if he existed as a third person to the part of your mind that feels. If you made a brain surgery that, somehow, made you look at the world from the eyes of someone else, but with the exact same thoughts and everything else from the other person, both would still be the same people and no one would notice the difference, but the part that feels would be exchanged.

[Mulie]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

You perceive blackness where there's an absence of light. The space that would normally be represented to your brain by the images you perceive is all still there. You just don't see it anymore. Putting forth abstract ideas won't accomplish anything for you, because it doesn't matter how complex you make them. They're still abstract ideas.

You're only confusing yourself, by convincing yourself that 'something' is there; that 'something' is missing, or outside the reality we perceive. Our brains do not create space when they perceive an image; they only sense the space. Like a bat using echolocation to sense and steer through the terrain around it.

Once again. Images 'occur' only because you sense them. There's no proof to alternative dimension where your perception occurs as something physical.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I'm really not saying that death is life with closed eyes, I was referring to the space where images occur.



Ok, just forget about life and death for a second.
Can a space disappear or appear? If something appeared for you, perceptions, aren't there spaces for these things?

Sorry if I sound repetitive or retarded, a similar thing happened in a Philosophy forum not too long ago, it's frustrating, but I really want people to understand my thoughts.

I *think* I know what you're saying but I am not certain. Are you asking what it's like to not exist and then to suddenly be able to "sense" things? An interpretation of existence just forming from seemingly nothing (from your perspective)?

I mean, if you're asking about these "spaces"... again, think of your finger. What does your finger see? Nothing. There are no "spaces" for your finger's sight, because your finger does not have a sense of sight.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "spaces where images appear." If you can sense your reality, there are things there.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Once again. Images 'occur' only because you sense them. There's no proof to alternative dimension where your perception occurs as something physical.

I am not talking about physical space. There's no proof as something physical, but there's absolute proof as something real. Actually, it's the only thing you know for sure that exists: your mind and your perceptions. And your perceptions happen in spaces for each perception, like, as I've said before, a plane for the images in your mind. I am not creating anything.

I *think* I know what you're saying but I am not certain. Are you asking what it's like to not exist and then to suddenly be able to "sense" things? An interpretation of existence just forming from seemingly nothing (from your perspective)?

I mean, if you're asking about these "spaces"... again, think of your finger. What does your finger see? Nothing. There are no "spaces" for your finger's sight, because your finger does not have a sense of sight.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "spaces where images appear." If you can sense your reality, there are things there.

But my finger doesn't have a first person perspective... For example: an antenna gets information, it reacts to waves, but it doesn't "feel" the waves as a first person.

What I mean by a space appearing is just this, think about the 2d images: Can there be perceptions without a previously existing space? Can a space (of any kind, not only perceptions) appear or disappear?

[Flaming_Dingleberry]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I'm really not saying that death is life with closed eyes, I was referring to the space where images occur.

I thought you were referring to death because that's what it sounded like with the responses Reach gave. Images don't occur in "space", matter is matter and when it's destroyed, it's converted into a different form of matter. The paper can change physically, or you can change it chemically by burning it, but it's still matter.

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I am not talking about physical space. There's no proof as something physical, but there's absolute proof as something real. Actually, it's the only thing you know for sure that exists: your mind and your perceptions. And your perceptions happen in spaces for each perception, like, as I've said before, a plane for the images in your mind. I am not creating anything.

I would say your perceptions aren't simply images against a backdrop of space. Those images ARE your "space" by your definition. Images are formed from light given off from things, and your brain is able to make sense of this light. If there was no light, you would see darkness, or absence of light. If you die, you no longer interpret light and therefore do not see anything at all, including light and dark.

[Mulie]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I am not talking about physical space. There's no proof as something physical, but there's absolute proof as something real. Actually, it's the only thing you know for sure that exists: your mind and your perceptions. And your perceptions happen in spaces for each perception, like, as I've said before, a plane for the images in your mind. I am not creating anything.

But there's the thing. Perception is something real, something that occurs all the time; that does not prevent it from being something physical. All evidence points to perception being the processing done by our nervous centers and our nervous centers' senses. The bottom line is that chemical interactions create our perceptions.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

I would say your perceptions aren't simply images against a backdrop of space. Those images ARE your "space" by your definition. Images are formed from light given off from things, and your brain is able to make sense of this light. If there was no light, you would see darkness, or absence of light. If you die, you no longer interpret light and therefore do not see anything at all, including light and dark.

But the space isn't there just because I can interpret something that happens in it, a space exists independently from my thoughts. I can feel the light because there was space for it in the first place... lol "I can feel the light". Color is a 2d feeling, I can compare the space I'm talking about to an imaginary "screen". You can destroy a screen, but not a space.

I'll rest for a while and come back later.

Originally Posted by Flaming_Dingleberry
I thought you were referring to death because that's what it sounded like with the responses Reach gave. Images don't occur in "space", matter is matter and when it's destroyed, it's converted into a different form of matter. The paper can change physically, or you can change it chemically by burning it, but it's still matter.

Images occur in a space. There is a imaginary 2D space for the images in your brain, isn't there?

But there's the thing. Perception is something real, something that occurs all the time; that does not prevent it from being something physical. All evidence points to perception being the processing done by our nervous centers and our nervous centers' senses. The bottom line is that chemical interactions create our perceptions.

But that doesn't go against anything I've said...

[Mulie]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

But that doesn't go against anything I've said...

You implied that perception creates space. Perceptions occur as a result of chemical interactions in our nervous centers. These chemical interactions (and the energy that work with them) are all regularly occurring interactions between matter in the space we recognize.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough the first time. o-o I don't know whether it'll be clear enough this time, either.

But my finger doesn't have a first person perspective... For example: an antenna gets information, it reacts to waves, but it doesn't "feel" the waves as a first person.

What I mean by a space appearing is just this, think about the 2d images: Can there be perceptions without a previously existing space? Can a space (of any kind, not only perceptions) appear or disappear?

I think it's pretty safe to say that no new space is created when we perceive something.
edit: Whatever interactions that took place to form our perception happened between matter and energy that was already there.

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

You implied that perception creates space. Perceptions occur as a result of chemical interactions in our nervous centers. These chemical interactions (and the energy that work with them) are all regularly occurring interactions between matter in the space we recognize.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough the first time. o-o I don't know whether it'll be clear enough this time, either.

I think it's pretty safe to say that no new space is created when we perceive something.

I didn't say that the feelings create a space, I said that feeling occur in spaces, imaginary spaces. Again, can you imagine the images as something in a 2D space?

[MrRubix]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

But the space isn't there just because I can interpret something that happens in it, a space exists independently from my thoughts. I can feel the light because there was space for it in the first place... lol "I can feel the light". Color is a 2d feeling, I can compare the space I'm talking about to an imaginary "screen". You can destroy a screen, but not a space.

Okay so by space you mean something physical, or existent? "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" type of argument?

[mhss1992]

Re: Metaphysics LOL?

Okay so by space you mean something physical, or existent? "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" type of argument?

Just look at the image in front of you. Isn't it a bidimensional feeling, the colors?
The bidimensional place where colors occur is the space I'm talking about. I'm not really saying it's a physical or magical space, it's just a space for perceptions, an imaginary space.