Make Stepmania Great Again

[Celirra]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Read through everything you said, agree with a lot of what you said Mina. One thing specifically caught my eye, I've been thinking of the same:

I have frequently talked about the concept of specifically creating a pack that mimics ffr's 1-10 difficulty level designed to handhold new players through the introductory elements of the game and I've wanted to see this done for years now but while everyone agrees that it's a good idea nobody has once stepped up and said to me hey why don't we get rolling on this.

So like, what if there were to be a pack where, think of Stepping Stones, but like.. Well, covers a more wide range that allows progression. Looking at FFR, there's good starting files there, and looking at games such as DDR, Osu!, etc. They all have songs with multiple difficulties. So what if, say, there was a stepmania pack with about.. Maybe 15-20 songs or so, but with multiple difficulties (like what a completed game would have). Say a beginner ranging from 1-12 on FFR, Easy from 10-22, Normal from 20-35, Hard from 35-50, and expert being like 50-65. Now I know it requires a different kind of thought compared to something akin to VGMP or Yolomania or whathaveyou, but I think something like this, with properly rated difficulties etc, that looks like a full and complete pack, would be really neat and great.

If there's actually interest in a community pack like this, I'd be totally down to oversee it and such, maybe throw in some things here and there if others would be down as well. Let me know if anyone would be willing to do something like that.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

my idea was something more handholdy tbh, probably capping around ffr's 20s

and it would afford a tacit introduction to the various skillsets and file types present within the game insofar as that's achievable in a beginner pack

and yes a proper rating system is paramount and it would have to be customized to account for how difficult the introduction of different types of patterns are to players

And yes again it requires a different mindset and concept of approach from traditional packs. Very much an absolute beginner tier pack, and it's ok if half the files in the pack are just salvaged from random pad packs and shit. The important thing is that it's distributed with the game itself and instantly accessible by any prospective players. So basically like the stepmania 5 default songs pack if there weren't 2 files and shit.

@dyanmo dude you dont even know pen spinning is a big fucking deal

e: like realistically the amount of effort wouldn't be insignificant but of all the things that can or should be done this is the easiest and it would go a long fucking way

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

shout out to halogen for joining the server for working on that doc then leaving when he sees me and toby :^)

thanks for the shoutouts

it was mostly because of toby

that and i honestly don't feel like this is a well-enough conceived effort worth being a part of, as honest as i can be

unless you're finding an almost intrusive way to hold people's hands and get them into doing things, it's likely not effective (an offsite doc isn't gonna do it imo)

[Celirra]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

that and i honestly don't feel like this is a well-enough conceived effort worth being a part of, as honest as i can be

unless you're finding an almost intrusive way to hold people's hands and get them into doing things, it's likely not effective (an offsite doc isn't gonna do it imo)

Okay so here's where it's at right now:
- making google doc with some good stuff
- making a default SM .zip with a theme and a couple noteskins included (likely SCWH for the theme, and dividebyzero and wafles for noteskins), as well as more starter songs
- currently in the works of writing up a thread over to >>simulator files for a pack that fulfills the criteria I mentioned in an earlier post

Honestly, I don't know if this will work, but at least this way I can say I tried. I was actually going to message you asking for your input, because you seem like you'd know what would be good and what wouldn't be in this matter.
Though if anyone else wants to help too, that'd be super.

[devonin]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

For example, an RPG where battling is done via DDR -- short little songs for enemies (which also allows for repetition / practice of simple step patterns) or for groups of enemies, longer songs for harder enemies, really long songs for bosses, harder bosses that start slamming you with modifiers, courses, etc.

See also: Before the echo

[Kraezymann]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

I can help, if you want. It's nice to see people interested in helping out newcomers/beginners again

[Mahou]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Hypeee incoming I hope I get roasted ;D. Mention me senpai

No offense, but do you really like attention or something? Take that comment with a grain of salt please.

I think the Stepmania community has been doing a great job and doesn't really need improvements in catching the attention of new players. They will come regardles how much you advertise. Hell, I think the size of the community has exceeded my expectations considering the year we are in. In 2015, I was almost convinced only about 20 players were playing. It's very nice seeing all these new faces in the discord and on the website.


Maybe I'm just stupid but I'm not sure what the overall goal is here...to prove this game is superior to others or to just get more players? Players will come over time - they always come and go. And regardless if you have more players, the game won't change lol. To whom this game matters to, make what you can from it. After all, that's the only reason I can see why people have stuck around - the company of other existing members and the fun/challenge you get from the game.

[Celirra]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

I think the Stepmania community has been doing a great job and doesn't really need improvements in catching the attention of new players. They will come regardles how much you advertise. Hell, I think the size of the community has exceeded my expectations considering the year we are in. In 2015, I was almost convinced only about 20 players were playing. It's very nice seeing all these new faces in the discord and on the website.


Maybe I'm just stupid but I'm not sure what the overall goal is here...to prove this game is superior to others or to just get more players? Players will come over time - they always come and go. And regardless if you have more players, the game won't change lol. To whom this game matters to, make what you can from it. After all, that's the only reason I can see why people have stuck around - the company of other existing members and the fun/challenge you get from the game.

To put it bluntly, I much prefer when a game has a healthy balance of skill levels throughout the community and a sizable audience, because a) it helps the game stay fresh and with meeting new people to play with, and b) doing so will allow us (or maybe just me) to actually introduce people to the game and make them stay, rather than "oh yeah thats cool, but no thanks I'll stick to Osu".

The goal here isn't to prove the game is superior; rather, its to help make it better than it is currently in various ways. Sure the game isn't bad right now, I'd argue it's pretty good, but there's still things that can be done to it on various fronts. And if things can be improved, why not improve them? Stagnation is deterioration.

[Mahou]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

To put it bluntly, I much prefer when a game has a healthy balance of skill levels throughout the community and a sizable audience, because a) it helps the game stay fresh and with meeting new people to play with, and b) doing so will allow us (or maybe just me) to actually introduce people to the game and make them stay, rather than "oh yeah thats cool, but no thanks I'll stick to Osu".

I guess I just don't see it because there is only so much you can do. If the person isn't already getting into the game the first few days, then you can pretty much bet that they probably won't play it regularly or try to be on a higher tier of play. You can take the horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink.

The goal here isn't to prove the game is superior; rather, its to help make it better than it is currently in various ways. Sure the game isn't bad right now, I'd argue it's pretty good, but there's still things that can be done to it on various fronts. And if things can be improved, why not improve them? Stagnation is deterioration.

I know you didn't literally say that you weren't trying to prove anything, but it kind does in some sense. If someone is already an Osu player, you kind of have to prove why this game is better - that way, you have successfully got someone else into the community; however, if someone has never touched a rhythm game in their life, then you have to hope the person has a good enough experience to stick around.

[Soul Evans]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Stepmania was a hell to setup at first if i didn't go around and asking top SM players from osumania pm's, while i left stepmania for a while because of how i got frustrated at not knowing the difficulties, i went back to osumania and played animu songs that has a (bad but works) difficulty system, i would have probably stayed at stepmania if i knew what packs are the type of difficulty i'm catered towards to, i would probably

stayed there before i returned to the game a year later, but if i haven't played osumania and didn't get tempted to play the game again and had tons of peoples help setting it up again, and i was a completely new player, i would have probably not come back to stepmania
This wouldn't be the case for many other players but i'm basing this off of my experience with finding this game.

Please don't derail this thread by calling me bs, i'm just really lazy making a third video after i fucked up three of them.

[Celirra]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

I guess I just don't see it because there is only so much you can do. If the person isn't already getting into the game the first few days, then you can pretty much bet that they probably won't play it regularly or try to be on a higher tier of play. You can take the horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink.

I personally think we're currently not bringing the horse to water though, we're more bringing the horse to the middle of NY and saying "yeah there's some ponds and rivers and such, enjoy the water!", which is good for some horses but some horses might need a taxi or something, y'know?

I know you didn't literally say that you weren't trying to prove anything, but it kind does in some sense. If someone is already an Osu player, you kind of have to prove why this game is better - that way, you have successfully got someone else into the community; however, if someone has never touched a rhythm game in their life, then you have to hope the person has a good enough experience to stick around.

I think it's silly to attempt to conquer the pissing contest of which is the superior rhythm game. I guess it could be argued doing this is implicitly attempting to convince people that stepmania is superior, but I think it's more just to enhance the game as a whole on it's own; if it ends up making the game seem superior, so be it.

Stepmania was a hell to setup at first if i didn't go around and asking top SM players from osumania pm's, while i left stepmania for a while because of how i got frustrated at not knowing the difficulties, i went back to osumania and played animu songs that has a (bad but works) difficulty system, i would have probably stayed at stepmania if i knew what packs are the type of difficulty i'm catered towards to, i would probably

stayed there before i returned to the game a year later, but if i haven't played osumania and didn't get tempted to play the game again and had tons of peoples help setting it up again, and i was a completely new player, i would have probably not come back to stepmania
This wouldn't be the case for many other players but i'm basing this off of my experience with finding this game.

Please don't derail this thread by calling me bs, i'm just really lazy making a third video after i fucked up three of them.

That's exactly what I'm thinking; the setup being confusing to some and difficulties being arbitrary act as quite the deterrent I'd say. Why did you get tempted to play again though? This kind of thing is valuable to really figure out what draws people in.

[Nano Desu]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Stepmania was a hell to setup at first if i didn't go around and asking top SM players from osumania pm's, while i left stepmania for a while because of how i got frustrated at not knowing the difficulties, i went back to osumania and played animu songs that has a (bad but works) difficulty system, i would have probably stayed at stepmania if i knew what packs are the type of difficulty i'm catered towards to

This sort of thing is why we are working on this guide doc. idk if anyone here has tried setting up LR2, but the only thing that got me through it is "The Ultimate LR2 Guide" . Ideally, SM would be improved to not have a set up experience so bad its comparable to LR2, but given FFR's relationship with the dev team, this likely wont happen. The next best thing we can do (at least short term) is make a guide like this with a premade "ready to demo" stepmania install that comes with a few beginner packs and noteskins/themes to get people right into playing the game and understanding what is going on rather than having them looking everywhere online to figure out how to get more songs.

[choof]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

I just wrote up an idea for a project to introduce new players to stepmania

Mina, hit me up discord if you have one. Choof#2621

[Soul Evans]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

That's exactly what I'm thinking; the setup being confusing to some and difficulties being arbitrary act as quite the deterrent I'd say. Why did you get tempted to play again though? This kind of thing is valuable to really figure out what draws people in.

The reason i came back to stepmania from osumania was because of content mainly, i wanted to improve at my 4k skills and i kinda had a plan to play through hard stepmania files and you know practice, mainly getting through D7
that was my only goal for stepmania at first, but i had much fun getting highscores achieving stuff i couldn't do in the past and seeing progress is what gave me enjoyment out of this game, well i'm looking at it from a person already knowing what experience i'm trying to get out is what made me stay i think. far better than osumania can give me.

[sunn0glasses]

Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

serious question - could stepmania be elevated to an e-sport? mina and halogen brought up 'elitism' earlier in the thread. imo, i don't see the problem in having the most experienced members of the community setting the bar for high-tier competitive play. i think one of the problems we've addressed here is that there is no centralized authority, nothing to set standards for current players, not much incentive to progress other than self-directed goals.

it seems like esports these days are backed by shitloads of $$$, so obviously stepmania isn't going to get any major boost without some financing. but money does make the world go round n shit. if there were to be a centralized competition with prize money, that'd probably get some hype.

imo, it helps keep the fire burning if there's a "best player". back in the late 2000s, thaor was a pretty big deal, and seeing videos of him made me want to keep playing, even though i knew i wouldn't get on his level.

we've talked about introducing new players to sm, but what about retaining the existing community? wouldn't having an "official" tournament (or similar competitive outlet) make things a lot more interesting?