Why Cwhatever is cheap

[Tasselfoot]

my reason... i like reading at 1 specific speed... so if i have the option to play at that 1 speed vs switching speeds every song... playing at 1 speed is much better. my feeling is, any scroll rate is acceptable as long as there isn't a bpm change/stop that makes the file harder. modifications to scroll rate = not cheap.... modifications to hard bpm changes/stops = cheap.

and now i go to class... will debate more in a few hours.

[banditcom]

Again, it's all RELATIVE. Tassel can read at 550 better than me. I can read at 650 better than him. Thus if a normal mod brings it to around his, but won't around mine, it's to his advantage and vice versa. It's stupid. The STEPS are what should make the song difficult, not the reading speed (excluding songs like Gravity/etc).

[Origamikid]

your conclusion that modded metrics aren't cheap does not follow from yur arguement that you LIKE reading at one speed...

Are you saying that you also don't think 2.5, 3.5, 6, or even 2.75 are at all giving you any advantage over ppl who don't use them?

EDIT: so yes, then LET the other person have the advantage on that song... I concede that EP is better at faster BPM scrolls than I am... and YES that IS something to brag about... but that doesn't mean that I'm going to edit my mods so I can challenge him on songs that I suck at becuz of BPM... I just do as good as I can do, and leave it to him...

and why SHOULDN'T BPM scroll have anythign to do with difficulty? even on songs w/o BPM changes...

[banditcom]

That's your choice not to use them. I never said it didn't give an advantage. For some people like Nima, it doesn't matter. I do not think it's cheap, because I don't think reading should be an issue (again, other than like Gravity). Thus I think it is rather cheap that I would have to use 2x on Arrabbiata when a person like mwerp could easily use 3x. He can read at his comfort zone on that song, so why can't I? Isn't that rather cheap that because of the song's bpm and the default choices of speed mods that he has the advantage?

[Origamikid]

I never said it didn't give an advantage.

I do not think it's cheap

o__O

because in the case you gave, Mwerps comfort zone is BETTER than yours... he is BETTER than you at that particular area of difficulty of a song... similarly to how fast left hand stuff skrews me up... should I edit my stepfiles so that some arrows get shifted from my left hand to my right hand?

It isn't cheap that he has the advantage in that case, because the advantage is because of SKILL... not the program... Mwerp will beat u at fast speed modded songs BECAUSE he is SKILLED at reading fast bpms...

[banditcom]

and why SHOULDN'T BPM scroll have anythign to do with difficulty? even on songs w/o BPM changes...

Stepmania's default LIMITS the player in the ability to play at their best. It's cheap. Everyone should be allowed to play at their best. I play at my best at 650. That's why I play on it.

Saying there should be a limit in bpm choices is like telling people on the pro tennis tour can only have a selection of these certain raquets.

[banditcom]

It isn't cheap that he has the advantage in that case, because the advantage is because of SKILL... not the program... Mwerp will beat u at fast speed modded songs BECAUSE he is SKILLED at reading fast bpms...

Only on extreme cases it could be considered skill. I'll go back to my tennis example. If a pro player defeats another player with a wooden raquet, that takes some extra skill. But if a pro player defeats another player because the other player isn't using a raquet they are comfortable with (because they had to use the raquet), then that isn't skill. That's an advantage. Just like how some people have an advantage for being able to read at their comfort zone over someone who can't read at their comfort zone because of the limits of Stepmania's default metrics.

[Squeek]

It only gets worse the faster you read.

If my comfort zone was 835-865 (it was at a point) and I have some songs at 150, 160, 170, and 180, for example, I have to have 5.5x, 5.25x, 5x, and 4.75x to adjust accordingly.

At 150, I'd use 5.5x. Not too much of a problem.
At 160, I'd be forced to make a 5.25x. 5x is 800; too slow. 5.5x is 880; too fast.
At 170, I'd use 5x and get it perfect.
At 180, I'd be forced to make a 4.75x. 5x is way too fast and 4x is horribly slow.

This example doesn't take into account EVERY speed. Just the most prevalent. Just for those four, I'd have to use four speed mods of 11. Then I have to leave in 1.5x for Tokyo Style, blur, and Gabber, have 2x for songs like Outer Limits and Going on Spring Wind. I'd need 2.5x for Reality and ASb. 3x is an obvious necessity for 190-210. 3.5x is necessary for 160-180 stuff.

There's just too much crap that I don't want to have to worry about. If I'm just playing to see how good I can do on a song and fluke out an AAA (not likely), I doubt I'd be able to do it again with the C mod or with the X mod.

~Squeek

[Origamikid]

it LIMITS the players ability to cater to their ideal's... but it also forces everyone to teh same playing field... a more closely accurate comparison to tennis would be liek saying a person can modify the dimensions of their half of the court (to some extent) to cater to their ideals...

when you say playing at your best... SM doesn't in any way stop you from playing at your best... it comes with certain regulations... what you are doing by modding the metrics is taking away those rules to allow you to optimize your performance... but then that's taking away from the other person who doesn't gain anything by removing the regulations...

O yeah, and odd fact, all pro tennis rackets need to have strings going in both directions... cuz one time someone came in with strings only vertically and was able to give the ball craaaazy spin, so the banned that... what if players used rackets of different sizes and shapes?

[banditcom]

Of course there have to be some limitations. The limitations are songs with bpm changes/stops.

I will NOT choose to play at a scroll of 500 because of Stepmania's limits. Why the hell would I choose to read outside of my comfort zone in such a competitive game? Uhh DUH. Think about it for a second. I want to play my best. My best is at 650. My scores really wouldn't account for much if I could do a lot better on them because I played on 500. They would mean nothing because they would not be a good indication of my full skill.

EDIT: By the way, and trust me on this. I do look at people's scroll speeds. I have realized that if on some songs like Arrabbiata, that if you used a scroll speed that was in your comfort zone, that you would do a lot better.

EDIT 2: This is why I want everyone to play at their comfort zones. It's hard for me to guage how better you would do on Arrabbiata, Origami, if you only did it outside of your comfort zone. Thus it makes it harder to tell who's better than who, etc, cause it's not definitive.

[Origamikid]

being able to cope with differences in BPM settings is a PART of showing full skill... you want to play your best... and you can... but by best, that doesn't exclude BPM scroll... meaning, for say NGCBD, which is liek 140 I think? 4x is 560, 8x is obviously too fast for you... therefore YOUR BEST SCORE is a score that you would receive on 4x, because it IS the best that you can do without messing with the game to make it easier for you... your scores WOULD accoutn for much, if at least for yourself, because it shows that you overcame or are dealing with an adverse variable... do I continue to play Blade on 5x? nah, I went back to 4x with my horrible scores because it's a part of the challenge... the best I can do on Blade is my score on 4x because it is the best supplied mod there is for me...

let's say you are a fencer... competition fences with foil, sabre, and epee... let's say you create your OWN kind of blade... are you suggesting that you can compete against the ppl using foils legitimately while using your own new blade with different properties? Or maybe you can use an epee blade against other foilers... The fact that this IS a competetive game is WHY it's important to be at an even playing field...

uhh... I gotta be at chem recitation at 4:30, and I need to do a shitload of problems due then... I'll bbl...

[Arch0wl]

using cwhatever on songs with constant bpm is fine, I just haven't done it in the past because I get an error when I use it

I say this because in FFR R2, which will be the obvious competitive medium for fingerdance battles, is going to have that little slider that you move with your mouse which you can get down to the 0.01 so you can have 5.83x or something if you want (it goes up to 6, so people can't be TOO lame with it)

[Tasselfoot]

i still agree completely with bandicom... although i don't think the analogies are perfect...

what about this... with a tennis racquet... stepmania offers only 11 different racquets, when there are 100,000 on the market. i personally like racquet #23,612 while bandicom likes #61,830... both of us want to use OUR racquet when playing, not one of the limited few offered to us... so while you are comfortable to conform to the standards offered... we wish to break through the boudaries and make the standards conform to us.

[fusi0n]

Doesn't matter people are still going to use it, sorry.

[Moogy]

0-99 = 8x
100-155 = 5x
156-190 = 4x
191-240 = 3x
241-275 = 2.5x (Foonmod+ has this by default, it's not editing)
276-370 = 2x
371+ = 1.5x

That's how I do it.