Is this Just Self-Defence?

[fido123]

Video/Article

If you found the video confusing or just didn't watch it, a man working at McDonalds was slapped by two female patrons who then jumped the counter and started walking towards him behind it after he ran off to the other side. The man grabbed a metal object as they approached and beat them to the ground rather violently. They tried to get back up several times so he beat them as the tried. The man is in jail on $40'000 bail and has a court date for Oct. 11th. The whole thing started after the man questioned the validity of a $50 they handed him to purchase their meal.

Question is does this man deserve to go to prison and have his job stripped from him? Personally I think he went to far but you can't expect people in a situation when they're being attacked by two people to act all that well since they're probably scared as hell. I also think if two men came at a man in this kind of situation and the women ended up beating them down she wouldn't even have been in police custody for a second. Anybody else believe this incredibly gender double standard exists in our justice systems?

[iironiic]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Wow... He definitely crossed the line there. The beating was much more unnecessary than the two women climbing over the counter.

[fido123]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Wow... He definitely crossed the line there. The beating was much more unnecessary than the two women climbing over the counter.

If two threatening looking men jumped a counter after slapping you and started walking towards you aggressively would you stand there in fear they were going to kick your ass or defend yourself?

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Jail them both or neither of them.

In short: They're both wrong.

[iironiic]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

If two threatening looking men jumped a counter after slapping you and started walking towards you aggressively would you stand there in fear they were going to kick your ass or defend yourself?

Well, personally, I believe that any situation can be resolved nonviolently. If someone slaps me and walk towards me aggressively, they are surely crossing the line because they are using violence to make themselves look intimidating. I think an ideal way to resolve any situation is to talk out and reason with each other, but that really depends on the situation. I don't know what the argument is about in this video, but the actions shown on both parts are highly unnecessary.

Of course I will take necessary actions to defend myself. That doesn't mean I have to hurt the aggressive ones physically to defend myself.

[fido123]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Jail them both or neither of them.

In short: They're both wrong.

If you're not going to give any sort of reasoning nobody wants to read your posts. Could you please explain why?

Well, personally, I believe that any situation can be resolved nonviolently.

Of course I will take necessary actions to defend myself. That doesn't mean I have to hurt the aggressive ones to defend myself.

I'm sorry but I think this is a bunch of garbage the school systems have been teaching everybody for the past few decades and is completely false. It would be nice if we didn't need to resort to violence to resolve a situation but sadly this isn't the case. If somebody has stabbed you with a knife in the leg and continues to attack you with that knife and it seems his intent is to kill you, would you not fight back or would you ask him to stop until he killed you?

If someone slaps me and walk towards me aggressively, they are surely crossing the line because they are using violence to make themselves look intimidating.

They are using violence to BE intimidating, not just look it.


EDIT: Also I think you need to take into account that the worker never wanted to be in any sort of situation like that were he was on the spot and left in a situation where he could get badly hurt. I find it hard to harshly judge somebody's actions in these sort of situations because of not only this but the adrenalin that gets released into you during something like this, all because of the two patrons.

[iironiic]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

I'm sorry but I think this is a bunch of garbage the school systems have been teaching everybody for the past few decades and is completely false. It would be nice if we didn't need to resort to violence to resolve a situation but sadly this isn't the case. If somebody has stabbed you with a knife in the leg and continues to attack you with that knife and it seems his intent is to kill you, would you not fight back or would you ask him to stop until he killed you?

Well I never said any situation has to be resolved nonviolently, because that's not true. Sometimes violence is needed to defend yourself. In situations that involves stabbing, there are usually reasons behind why the aggressive one decides to attack you, so it's ideal to reason it out before the stabbing incident. Of course some people are more hard-headed than others. In this case or in the case of some random stranger threatening me, violence would only be the way out.

Moral of the story, I believe that violence should be the last resort of self defense.

EDIT:

EDIT: Also I think you need to take into account that the worker never wanted to be in any sort of situation like that were he was on the spot and left in a situation where he could get badly hurt. I find it hard to harshly judge somebody's actions in these sort of situations because of not only this but the adrenalin that gets released into you during something like this, all because of the two patrons.

No one wants to be in a situation similar to his. I agree it's difficult to analyze his actions due to the variables that come into play, but I'm sure that the situation can be handled in a better way.

[DarknessXoXLight]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Okay, he took it a bit far, but no, I don't enjoy the fact that you go to jail for self defense. I think his sentence is way too harsh. If it was me, I would have more than likely reacted the same way. (maybe not that violent but you know what i mean)

[remedy1502]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it self defence only up to the point of fighting back with the same force? Like, some dude breaks into your house and threatens you with a knife, you can fight back with a knife, but you can't go get a gun and shoot him and call it self defence.
It's the same thing here, they just used their hands and he used a metal blunt object. I would call it assault before calling it self defence.

[UserNameGoesHere]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

He was completely justified, the woman was an aggressive idiot whom I would imagine either has been in prison for assault or robbery at some point or should have been, it is unreasonable that he should serve any amount of jail time or pay any fines, and, yes, in many ways the American justice system is a joke, though not a funny one. There is definitely bias and all sorts of underhanded things (have enough money or know the right people, be the right race, be the right gender, etc = different ruleset for you/etc...)

He was acting in self defense and, not only that, but from a logical standpoint if this woman is crazy enough to hop that counter and then proceed to slap him, she most likely would have more seriously attacked him if he didn't do something and could even be carrying a knife or gun. Once she was first hit and down, he couldn't risk her getting up because of the possibility of her carrying a concealed weapon. So it not only was the correct instinctual move but the correct logical one as well.

Violence always should be a last resort but you cannot always nor should you avoid it if it is needed. I guess the question here is "Is it needed?" and I would say that it was.

Also, you don't mess with people is a pretty good general rule of life. This woman deserved that beating for her insane actions. Unfortunately the "justice" system is teaching the wrong lesson here since she is the one who should serve time, not him.

Note: iironiic, your two posts contradict themselves. First you say violence should never be used. Then you backpedal and say it should only be used as a last resort. Well of course any reasonable person isn't going to use violence as anything but a last resort. That should be obvious.

[iironiic]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Note: iironiic, your two posts contradict themselves. First you say violence should never be used. Then you backpedal and say it should only be used as a last resort. Well of course any reasonable person isn't going to use violence as anything but a last resort. That should be obvious.

When I made my first point, I think what I meant to say was, violence isn't necessarily needed to resolve a conflict. In other words, I don't necessarily need to use violence on the aggressive one to defend myself. Poor choice of words at my part.

And I agree with your post. Violence should be the last resort but there are instances when you have to use violence over your other options.

[bmah]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

The question in this case is obviously a matter of "reasonable force". In law, reasonable force is generally defined as the minimum amount of physicality/force required to avoid harm or some other bad scenario. It's up to the jury to decide what's "reasonable force" depending on each case and the amount of evidence gathered to come to a conclusion.

But from the video, clearly this guy was doing far more than reasonable force. A slap in the face is not life-threatening; repeatedly getting beaten with a metal object is. Not only that, but the women requested the man to stop. The man continued to beat them, even as the women tried to get back up. So in my eyes, it's pretty good to conclude excessive force was being used.

Does the man deserve to go to prison and have his job stripped of him? Once again, the strength of the punishment goes back to the jury deciding on how excessive the force was. I doubt it has anything to do with gender discrimination. Give me an actual example fido, as opposed to getting some sort of hunch that you'd bet the law would bend in a male's favor.
IMO, the man definitely should have his job stripped. Heavy fine? Most likely. Prison time? I'm not quite sure how reasonable that is.

Also, that's just how the law is. It's only flexible up to a certain point. Try to see if you can convince the jury that "it was the adrenaline that made you do it". In summary though, it's not always easy to determine what's "reasonable force" or what degree of punishment should be handed out, so you shouldn't immediately find another reason to blame (e.g. gender discrimination) unless you can clearly show otherwise. This part of the law is grey for the most part.

[Superfreak04]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

I actually learned about the boundaries of "self Defense" last week in my criminal law class. Yes he was defending himself, but he made the situation worse than it already was. If you watch the video, after he has to two pinned down on the ground, he CONTINUES to beat them. By doing that alone, it's no longer self defense, but it is counted as Battery. And as some of you have said, you have to be reasonable in self defense. When you're a police officer and you're taking someone down, you better not use a pistol if the person is not holding any form of weapon that can be held as a lethal weapon. In this case, the cashier was holding a lethal weapon, and using it against people that were using only their hands. Although, you have to realize that every state is different in self defense laws.

tl;dr The reason why the man was charged is because he turned a self defense situation, into a battery.

[xXAll-ProXx]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

Yea it's self defense, the man just grabbed a golf club and beat the shit out of her what's wrong with that?I mean she ****ing slapped him in the face, I'd definitely beat the shit out of her the way that dude did../sarcasm

seriously though, that's obviously not self-defence. He turned it into an unecessary brawl.

[midnghtraver]

Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?

I'm not reading all that ^.

But he totally went way too far. First strike was self defense, but the fact that he continued made it unjustified.