Reincarnation...

[dandandamdandan1111]

Re: Reincarnation...

rzr, could you elaborate a little bit?

[rzr]

Re: Reincarnation...

Rzr, you do not have "truth" if you take out the agnostic perspective from this thread. From the way you said it, you say it like it was existent and proven it exists already and you are only asking about the good and bad points.

No matter what perspective you, that is everyone, are replying from, the established facts are:

-Reincarnation is currently not proven, only an idea.
-Reincarnation is a part of a religion.

You're saying reincarnation is an unproven part of another religion. But all religion is unproven because there is no physical evidence to support any beliefs. If there was physical proof, it wouldn't be a religion.

[rzr]

Re: Reincarnation...

rzr, could you elaborate a little bit?

Sure thing.
Children are said to to be the most innocent of all humans. Reincarnation is based on the thoughts that if you have done too many bad deeds you keep coming back until you get it right (super simplified version). If a child is the most innocent then they haven't commited any bad deeds. That means the child, if they died as a child, would not be reincarnated. So if a child has insight to his previous life, could that mean... what would that mean based on the thoughts and facts I just layed down?

EDIT: If this is a double post, pleased devonin, don't kill me. CT threads aren't usually this active so I'm trying to answer and reply to everything as quick as I can without knowing what's been posted since my last reply or lack there of.

[devonin]

Re: Reincarnation...

I most certainly didn't say it was pointless. I said it was individually meaningless. There is a huge difference there.

It can be vitally important to someone to try and live a life according to the tenets that lead them to a positive reincarnation, my point is that to each individual, even if reincarnation were true, it wouldn't actually mean anything. I'll repost my logic from the other thread:

Hypothesis: People are reincarnated when they die

Premise: Either you remember your past life or you don't

Premise: I have never met any person in my entire life with memories of a past life

Premise: Either I've coincidentally only met brand new souls, or you do not remember your past life

Conclusion 1: It seems far more likely that you do not remember your past life, than that I have never once met a single person who wasn't a newly created soul

Conclusion 2: You don't remember your past life

Implication: If you don't remember your past lives, the fact that you had them is individually meaningless, because you cannot prove that you did, have no memory of them, and they have no visible impact on your life.

If it is impossible for me to know whether I've lived any previous lives, whether I have or not becomes meaningless. Even if I do poorly in this life and will be reincarnated in a lesser incarnation, that one won't remember that it slipped up to know it needsto work harder, in fact any possible lesson can't be learned, because all information was lost.

[JKPolk]

Re: Reincarnation...

Fun fact, though, Dev, there are more people alive today than have walked the Earth in total. At least from what I've heard.

[dandandamdandan1111]

Re: Reincarnation...

Sure thing.
Children are said to to be the most innocent of all humans. Reincarnation is based on the thoughts that if you have done too many bad deeds you keep coming back until you get it right (super simplified version). If a child is the most innocent then they haven't commited any bad deeds. That means the child, if they died as a child, would not be reincarnated. So if a child has insight to his previous life, could that mean... what would that mean based on the thoughts and facts I just layed down?

EDIT: If this is a double post, pleased devonin, don't kill me. CT threads aren't usually this active so I'm trying to answer and reply to everything as quick as I can without knowing what's been posted since my last reply or lack there of.

Accordding to the belief of reincarnation, the less bad deeds you have done, then the better off you will be in the next life. A person who has not committed any bad deeds will come back as a person of more respect.

[devonin]

Re: Reincarnation...

Fun fact, though, Dev, there are more people alive today than have walked the Earth in total. At least from what I've heard.

This is true, and like I said, I admit the possibility that I've coincidentally NEVER met a reincarnated person, but I've also never seen ANY compelling evidence from anybody in the world ever that they are a reincarnated person with full or even partial memories of a past life.

The vast majority of people claiming to have past life knowledge claim to have been someone famous, can answer many questions about that person (All available from publically accessable sources) and can say virtually nothing about day-to-day life in the setting they claim to have been from.

I have neither met nor heard tell of anybody wil compelling evidence that they can support the idea of reincarnation, so I can assume a few possibilities:

1/ Reincarnation doesn't happen
2/ Reincarnation happens but nobody remembers past lives
3/ Reincarnation happens, and coincidentally in 24 years of knowing people, and following world news, and studying religion I have simply never happened to come across a single solitary person who was ever reincarnated, only brand new souls

Not only are 1 and 2 both far more likely conclusions, both 1 and 2 support my original premise, and meet with basically all available evidence on the subject.

If a child is the most innocent then they haven't commited any bad deeds. That means the child, if they died as a child, would not be reincarnated.

Not quite. Most of the beliefs of reincarnation I'm aware of don't go "You find enlightenment automatically, unless you do bad things" The process is supposed to be long and arduous. You earn your way up by doing good things, not just failure to do bad things. In fact, Zen Buddhists were treated largely as heretics for claiming that you could go directly to enlightenment without having first been born Brahmin. An untouchable child didn't get nirvana, they more than likely were reborn an untouchable.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Reincarnation...

Premise: I have never met any person in my entire life with memories of a past life

I have. And JKPolk makes a good point.

But I would say that the thoery of when you die you help someone else live is more likly then reincarnation. I would die and before the end of time I would help the next person born live out his life. It's a good theory about why you just know not to/to do something sometimes or why people have memories of past lives

But to be 100% honest, I dont truly believe any of that. I am a Christian who also believes a few taoism thoeries. That's another thread tho

[rzr]

Re: Reincarnation...

To elaborate on Devonin's statement, yes, Buddhists are said to achieve enlightent through great suffering and trial.
Like I said, Buddhists monks and nuns starve themselves for fasting rituals, but also when are not fasting are given (generally) no food from their monastry (sp?). They are made to beg for food and are [again, like I already said] that while begging for food and money, are not aloud to look at their donors. Doing so reflects making the act menial rather than spiritual.
In addition they are to endure long and gruelling hours of study. All that together makes the process of enlightenment agonizingly difficult to achieve.

@ dan: That doesn't answer my question. I suppose what I'm really asking is if a child can see into his past life does that mean children could be used to prove the existant of reincation?

[TD_m0nster]

Re: Reincarnation...

I want reincarnation to exist. That would be such a cool thing. Being rewarded for your good deeds is great...

I mean if you had the choice of being another human (or animal) or living in an afterlife, what would you choose? Human life is great.

[rzr]

Re: Reincarnation...

No offense but that statement is invalid because once your good deeds are completed ending the cycle of reincarnation you do not live an after-life. Your individual soul is united with a world or universal soul.

Personal note: that would be cool though ^^

[Grandiagod]

Re: Reincarnation...

No offense but that statement is invalid because once your good deeds are completed ending the cycle of reincarnation you do not live an after-life. Your individual soul is united with a world or universal soul.

[citation needed]

[atalkingcow]

Re: Reincarnation...

I most certainly didn't say it was pointless. I said it was individually meaningless. There is a huge difference there.
...
...block of text...
...
If it is impossible for me to know whether I've lived any previous lives, whether I have or not becomes meaningless. Even if I do poorly in this life and will be reincarnated in a lesser incarnation, that one won't remember that it slipped up to know it needsto work harder, in fact any possible lesson can't be learned, because all information was lost.

The theory of Reincarnation that -I- was taught claims that:
You CAN remember important lessons from past lives.
All memories of your past lives are there, you just have been conditioned by society not to be able to remember them.
At some point, you will learn all that you needed to, and become part of "God" (or some variety of universal conciousness)
All living beings are an extension of "God", and thus actions against others are essentially actions against yourself.
All actions have lessons, and there are no "good" or "bad" actions, as long as something is learned from them.


In this line of thought, reincarnation is NOT individually meaningless, as:
a) there really are no individuals
and b) you retain all of your knowledge in your "soul", but not in your current body's brain.

[rzr]

Re: Reincarnation...

All of my religious figures are from a particular text book I have from freshman year. I apologize, I only took the pages that interested me (the 9 pages of religious summaries) and discarded the book. If anyone thinks they may have a similar text I can describe the book, the pages I have, and the citation the book has for reference.

[TD_m0nster]

Re: Reincarnation...

Indeed it would be cool. I would just love a life where you are reborn again...and don't know it. I say this now, and I could've said this in my past lifetime. And I say it (again). This is why im a proclaimed agnostic.