Depression.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

I did read what you said.

We have all kinds of things that we developed for some use at a previous era of human evolution that pretty much serve no function now, but since they don't necessarily serve an abjectly negative function, we haven't selected them out.

I took that as implying that the ability to become to depressed was "developed for some use at a previous era of human evolution."

Further, I'm aware that natural selection exclusively works on traits that effect the ability to breed.

Further, if the ability to be depressed is a necessary consequence of say...sentience, then it is -absolutely- worth taking depression in exchange. Every trait doesn't exist in a sole vacuum, to be singly taken or not. Many things come together in a suite of things that evolved together, and were accepted together as being of overall benefit to survival.

Now, I'm well aware that mutation or new trait or whatever you want to call with can always come with side effects. To take your example as the case in point, sentience coming with the propensity to become depressed. However, one would think that over time, after a new instance of punctuated equilibria, the negative aspects of the trait that negatively affect breeding could be divided and conquered. Perhaps I give too much credence to mutation as a means to achieve "gene therapy."

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Depression.

To add to my comment. Perhaps depression is the neurological equivalent of a earlobe, since earlobes do not, and did not serve a purpose in human evolution. Nonetheless, humans still have earlobes, and different kinds mind you.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

You assume depression has a purpose, or that it evolved to serve some purpose. Perhaps depression is merely a neurological/psychological defect that, because of it's relatively benign nature (in terms of survival), has failed to evaporate from the gene pool.

It is purpose that created us. Purpose that connects us. Purpose that pulls us. That guide us. That drive us. It is purpose that defines. Purpose that binds us.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

In essence I more or less have to agree with you, jewp, as I can't really see another explanation for it. However, my question now is if there is a possibility of separating depression, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc. from the rest of cognitive function, whetever it's even possible to remove it from the gene pool.

[Reach]

Re: Depression.

Depression isn't really a trait that evolved. It is associated with abnormalities in the brain that usually develop later in life. Specifically, it involves abnormalities in levels of the neurotransmitters (from what we know so far) Norepinephrine, Serotonin and Dopamine, and any mix of them. There are so many factors that go into causing depression, one reason why it's incredibly hard to treat.

Without modern medicine people don't live very long. There is no reason to select against depression because most of the time it would have no time to manifest itself, and or would have no bearing on overall survival rates of populations. Not to mention depression is associated with things that are incredibly hard to remedy anyway...it would be impossible to remove it from the gene pool entirely, since you'll always end up with abnormal individuals.

It would also be impossible to remove because there are no single genes or sets of genes that manifest the trait. Although you can be predisposed to it genetically, it's caused by other environmental factors that your genes cannot control.

So yea, it wasn't selected for, but rather it exists because it's inevitable. People don't work right all the time. **** happens and there's nothing you can do about it. You could have the most amazing car in the world but that doesn't mean the muffler can't fall off.

[OrganisM]

Re: Depression.

There are a great deal of things in the universe that aren't driven by purpose. Very few things are.

The doctors still aren't sure what to do with me. Apparently I have some form of bipolar, and that's primarily hereditary, as far as I understand it. And I don't really believe there's any purpose behind it, nor do I see any need for justification or purpose.

[SethSquall]

Re: Depression.

Interesting to read what you guys say. I suffer from depression. I take tablets every night that help me feel the need to get up in the morning. Although, it looks as though the effects may be wearing off and it worries me. Don't worry, I see my Doctor regularly and I'm not about to go do anything stupid. For me, it's more I worry about my future, although the amount I worry about it never seems to motivate me to do anything productive in my life. Things I once thought I could do that would be fun and would benefit me never worked out. I was never happy in it overall.

It first started when I was 15/16. I used to smoke weed for what seemed recreation but until after it was too late I realized that it was to try and suppress the extreme panic I had of really growing up. It grew inside me until one day, the worst day of my life, I lost the only thing that made me happy. I had my first panic attack. Ever since then I suffered from Anxiety and Depression. This is why I could never grasp why people called it a decease. Yes for the most part I felt that people called people like me "Depressed" because they felt anyone who didn't agree with the way society works had something wrong with them and needed to be cured. Maybe they didn't want to cure the opinion but more knew that no matter how the depressed felt about the world they needed to accept it, as it would never change. This was a huge factor to my Depression, although it was one I could live with. The one that pushed me over the edge was the huge heartbreak I felt when loosing the only person I thought I could rely on at the time. The only person that made me happy. It was more or less the only person in my life at the time, 100% of my time was spent with. I won't get further into it as you guys probably think I'm blabbering on enough about myself as it is. And for that I apologize. Anyway, perhaps my troubles were to heavy for the both of us.

So anyway, if Depression is a disease then how did I "catch" it? I find it strange. I became depressed. It wasn't anything to do with my bodies immune system. Somethings happened in my life and as a result I suffered from anxiety and became Depressed.

Now anyway, to focus more on depression. I don't think Depression has anything to do with evolution and evolution will never get rid of it as It wouldn't need to. I understand that it can be a huge hindrance to the progression on some us all but overall it's not that big of a threat to humanity is it. For the most part we have Depression under control. If we evolved to have these feelings then maybe Depression does have it's uses. When someone dies we are depressed. We morn as way of getting the sadness out are system, it would just seem it's harder for some maybe.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

The diagnosis of depression and the ways of "catching" it don't interest me as much as the question of why we're even able to become depressed in the first place. As far as I can see, the only reason we'd have it is that it was a side-effect of evolving an advanced brain and since it isn't horribly deleterious towards breeding effectiveness, it was never weeded out.

As long as we're sharing, I guess I have an interest in the subject because I was diagnosed with depression when I was 8 years old, and then again when I was 21. They gave me pills both times but I flushed them down the toilet. Probably not a great decision, but I didn't like the idea of allowing my mind to be altered by pills for any reason. I should be able to work out my own problems. I was pretty depressed yesterday when I started thinking about it again so I thought I'd see what CT had to say.

[User1176756]

Re: Depression.

i get it around early to mid december every year since i had that concussion when my dad punched me in the back of the head. when i was 12. it's like i think about that moment and only that moment and i feel like i wanna kill myself. why am i still alive? idk.

[rzr]

Re: Depression.

My girlfriend just got diagnosed with seasonal depression and I have bipolar. It's not a huge thing to worry about once you have it under control. and FYI: mediaction does absolute **** for it, your problems are up to you to fix. That's how i roll.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Depression.

Personally, I believe the current diagnosis and treatment of depression, along with most psychological diseases, to be inadequate. This stems from my general distrust of the pharmaceutical market, which profits off of the sick (for what incentive do they have to "cure" your ailment if it means losing a customer?). It's much easier to treat the symptom rather than cause. And in todays society it seems just about every other person is "depressed" in some form or another. For some it may be a serious neurological defect, but for the most part I believe depression to be a by-product of certain unhealthy cultural practices.

Everyone will know what it means to be depressed at some point in their life, it's inevitable. After graduating from high school with no plan or goal for the rest of my life, I felt hopeless. There was no point to life, it seemed. I was going to grow up to be a nobody in a world that doesn't care if I exist. I was going to get a job at some nowhere place, working under some big-shot nobody, and it is there that I would rot until I am too old to work. Then I'd die, and hopefully by then I'll have collected enough green bits of paper so to leave to my offspring so that the cycle of slavery could continue.

And you know what? The problem is that I wasn't living in the present, something that is extremely difficult to do in today's society. We are not our past, for the past is that what was, but is not now. And we are not our future, for the future does not yet exist, it is a blank canvas. Reality is the here and now.

Of course, I am not arguing in favor of reckless disregard for "future" consequences. It is important to learn from the past, but it is also important to acknowledge that the past (and history) is by no means "infallible."

[Squeek]

Re: Depression.

@Jewp: That's exactly how I see it.

"Medical science" is constantly making new claims, then silently overwriting some of its earlier claims. For example, pretty much everyone in America has heard that you should be drinking 8 bottles of water a day. Of course, this is impossible. Anyone who drinks this much water spends half of their waking life in a bathroom.

Now there are studies being conducted to determine if humans are drinking too much water. Wow. It's as if the medical community is just outright telling us "we have no idea what makes humans healthy or sick." And by the way, if you can't tell by now, I'm paraphrasing Lewis Black. I like to cite my sources.

The kicker was simple. "Is milk good or bad for you?" Not a single audible noise came from anywhere in the theater for 5 seconds. "I rest my case."

Doctors are quick to prescribe anything they can to treat whatever it is they think you have. Feeling a little blue? Take this pill! Looking a bit overweight? Take this pill! Can't sleep? Take this pill! Nevermind the fact that the pills have crazy side-effects and that finding a proper mix of pills that work with each other to make you "less sick" than would all three potent mixes of the medicines combined. Nevermind the fact that using medicine to treat ever minor illness you have is a great way to tell your immune system "you're not necessary any longer! go take a vacation!"

Like I said, Jewpin already said it. People will be sad. People will be happy. That's just going to be the way it is. What we do in a single day today would take weeks, even months to do in the past. We cram so much into our lives that we're bound to cause problems for our bodies. Why are people overweight? Do you think maybe the reason we have more overweight children today than we did 50 years ago is that children don't have to walk to school anymore? Do you think it's because we pamper them and shelter them from outdoor activities so they don't get hurt? Do you think it's because nobody knows how to set limitations on their children's actions, thus allowing them to eat much more than they should?

We live in a society where everyone believes what they are told. The media portrays video games as bad. No matter what video game activists try to claim, nobody cares. The media already told everyone that video games are bad. The media reports that drinking water is necessary. Bottled water, which 10 years ago didn't even exist, is now in the hands of EVERY AMERICAN. Reports on obesity and ads for weight loss tell Americans that they're fat. Ads for anti-depressants list symptoms of depression. Surprisingly enough, they're the same symptoms of "I'm sad."

Did you ever wonder why I quit watching television?

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

Hey Squeek, you forgot the bit he did on how they can't make up their minds on if eggs are healthy or not. "First they said eggs were good! Then they said eggs were bad! Then they said eggs were good! Then they said the yellow was bad, but the whites wer- MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!"

For another example of overdiagnosis, check out autism. It seems like autism is the new ADD for kids today, since I guess parents have caught on that most ADD diagnoses are bs. I was a summer camp counselor in the summer of 2006. 6 kids out of my group of 15 were "autistic." There was one kid that was actually autistic. Like, couldn't process information well and ran around screaming constantly. The other 5 were just spoiled, whiny, ill-behaved kids that needed a good smack.

It makes me sick. I might have actually had depression in 3rd grade, or I might have just been sad because I had no friends (I got beat up on the first day of first grade at the bustop by kids I didn't know because I went to a private kindergarten, didn't make many friends at the new school). Then when I was 21, well I was just playing along with the therapist they made me see after wigging out in my dorm room while I was upset after getting off the phone with my ex. Oh yea and I was high as a kite. As long as you make the therapists think they're geniuses, they don't actually care about getting beyond whatever facade you put up.

But I digress. Are we better off as a species because we have the propensity to feel depressed?

[devonin]

Re: Depression.

Depression provides a suitable counterpoint to happiness.

I'd say that we're better off able to experience both happiness and sadness, than only baseline contentment.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

Why are you assuming you can't have one without the other?

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Depression.

Why are you assuming you can't have one without the other?

Emotional dichotomies. If one extreme exists, then there is a good chance it's opposite exists as well. What does it mean to be happy if one never experiences sadness?