Depression.

[All_That_Chaz]

Something that has always bothered me about the evolution of man is that with the development of an advanced brain also came the onset of a throng of mental diseases, defects, or other ailments. Why would humanity evolve to feel things such as depression? It makes us lethargic, despondent, and uncaring about what happens to the self or others. I can't imagine any beneficial aspects of these feelings/neural deficiencies. Why do we have them? Is it just a note that we are still developing as a species? Or perhaps is there some vestigal reason behind a need for these problems?

I'm going to assume evolution is correct for the purposes of this topic, and there are plenty of other threads on that, so please stay on topic here.

[toxicninja]

Re: Depression.

I think depression helps people be creative and more thoughtful sometimes, dunno if theres a point to that. did we evolve to make art instead of making better technology? maybe depressed people exist just to cheer up the normal people so they can think about being creative towards things that improove quality of life or help humanity in general.

[Ozie-Saf]

Re: Depression.

Since when are humans the only ones who can be depressed. Any animal (humans, dogs, horses and so on) can be depressed. And I suppose that being depressed is just a way to show you that there's something wrong in your life. It's the same as feeling pain: when you touch something that's really hot, you remove your hand ->when you're depressed, you have to change something that's hurting you. It's just difficult to find out what's wrong, since you don't always know what's making you feel bad (it's not as ovious as a thorn in your hand ).
And how would we know what being happy feels like, if we weren't feeling sad (or depressed) from time to time?

[Tokzic]

Re: Depression.

I think depression helps people be creative and more thoughtful sometimes, dunno if theres a point to that. did we evolve to make art instead of making better technology? maybe depressed people exist just to cheer up the normal people so they can think about being creative towards things that improove quality of life or help humanity in general.

This post makes absolutely no sense.

Depression doesn't make anyone creative. For people who are artists, it gives them an emotion to play off of into their art, but most art based on just an emotion is bad. Depression doesn't make anyone thoughtful, either. At all. Actually, it hinders thought, because there's this wall of negativity you have to work around to get to coherant thought, making it more difficult.

We didn't evolve to make art or to make technology. We evolve to continue our species. Nothing in our genetic code is there to make us want to make art or technology, or to benefit the entire species as a whole, though there are instincts hard-coded into us that make us prone to creating art and technology - the need to leave a mark, for one.

Something that has always bothered me about the evolution of man is that with the development of an advanced brain also came the onset of a throng of mental diseases, defects, or other ailments. Why would humanity evolve to feel things such as depression? It makes us lethargic, despondent, and uncaring about what happens to the self or others. I can't imagine any beneficial aspects of these feelings/neural deficiencies. Why do we have them? Is it just a note that we are still developing as a species? Or perhaps is there some vestigal reason behind a need for these problems?

I'm going to assume evolution is correct for the purposes of this topic, and there are plenty of other threads on that, so please stay on topic here.

We don't evolve to include defects, we evolve to make ourselves more in tune with our environment. However, due to variation, we often end up with physical or mental defects, which are perfectly natural.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

Ozie, I suppose you're right that most mammals have the cognitive facilities to feel depression. I haven't heard of reptiles or other kingdoms of animals feeling depression, but for the purposes of this debate, we can consider this a moot point.

If it makes more sense to you, rephrase the question as, "Why do creatures experience depression?"

I disagree with your pain analogy. The adrenaline response of pain is not paralleled by a "carpe diem" mentality in the depressed. Depression makes people lethargic and unwilling to change anything in their lives, even if it would change it for the better.

I also don't think that we know what being happy feels like just because it is the antithesis of being sad. There are hormones that define what happy feels like, and they are released when agreeable things are happening to us.

Stop me if I'm mistaken, but I think depression on the most basic level is caused by a neural problem in which particles are not transferred across synapsis in the brain. I just wonder why we would have this problem and what causes it.

EDIT:
Tokzik, so do you think these deficiencies will be something that could be lost in the process of evolution? Or do you think that these side-effects are something that simply comes with having a brain like we do?

[toxicninja]

Re: Depression.

This post makes absolutely no sense.

Depression doesn't make anyone creative. For people who are artists, it gives them an emotion to play off of into their art, but most art based on just an emotion is bad. Depression doesn't make anyone thoughtful, either. At all. Actually, it hinders thought, because there's this wall of negativity you have to work around to get to coherant thought, making it more difficult.

We didn't evolve to make art or to make technology. We evolve to continue our species. Nothing in our genetic code is there to make us want to make art or technology, or to benefit the entire species as a whole, though there are instincts hard-coded into us that make us prone to creating art and technology - the need to leave a mark, for one.

i disagree, i think depression makes people creative. perhaps you've only encountered emo poems by teenagers.

Mod Edit: Flaming is a no-no, especially when all they did was disagree with your position in a reasonable manner.
EDIT: chaz, maybe depressions a defect of evolution, like all brain disorders and psyical deformations.

[Ozie-Saf]

Re: Depression.

I disagree with your pain analogy. The adrenaline response of pain is not paralleled by a "carpe diem" mentality in the depressed. Depression makes people lethargic and unwilling to change anything in their lives, even if it would change it for the better.

Sorry if I didn't make myslef clear: pain is a warning something's wrong, and depression works (almost) the same way. The only difference is that the person who's concerned does not always realize she/he's depressed

I can't imagine any beneficial aspects of these feelings/neural deficiencies. Why do we have them? Is it just a note that we are still developing as a species? Or perhaps is there some vestigal reason behind a need for these problems?

And I can't imagine any beneficial aspects of having a cold or a any disease (might make some people more resistant though). I suppose it's some kind of natural selection: only the strongest will survive (a depressive cat will let itself die, letting healthier cats -most probably of mind and body- breed, the same as an illness will kill the weakest individuals).

I also don't think that we know what being happy feels like just because it is the antithesis of being sad. There are hormones that define what happy feels like, and they are released when agreeable things are happening to us.

Creepy way of thinking (in my opinion ). But then again, I suppose you said that because I didn't make myself clear (again . Meh, I wish I spoke English fluently!!!). I meant "to understand what is feels like". Ask someone who can't feel pain to understand what it feels like to be hurt: he can't. It works the same for feelings: even though hormones make you happy, how could you possibly know it is happiness if you've never been sad before? That's one of the main differences between "animals" and humans: we can put words on our feelings, and therefore we KNOW what they are.

Stop me if I'm mistaken, but I think depression on the most basic level is caused by a neural problem in which particles are not transferred across synapsis in the brain. I just wonder why we would have this problem and what causes it.

Concerning what causes depression or why we would have this problem, scientists themselves do not fully understand how depression works, so I'm not going to be able to give you THE answer you're looking for. What I know is that some individuals may be biologically predisposed to depression, that it can be internally caused or related to outside events (Major loss or any major changes in one's environment)

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

And I can't imagine any beneficial aspects of having a cold or a any disease (might make some people more resistant though). I suppose it's some kind of natural selection: only the strongest will survive (a depressive cat will let itself die, letting healthier cats -most probably of mind and body- breed, the same as an illness will kill the weakest individuals).

Depression (most commonly) is not brought on by a virus or a bacteria, it is brought on by problems in your own brain. And are you implying that depression/suicidal tendencies are genetic? This is different from my initial question. I'm asking why we even have the propensity to become depressed. What you're implying is that more depressive tendencies are passed from parents to children, and their killing themselves is natural selection. A little morbid, but is it accurate?

I meant "to understand what is feels like". Ask someone who can't feel pain to understand what it feels like to be hurt: he can't. It works the same for feelings: even though hormones make you happy, how could you possibly know it is happiness if you've never been sad before? That's one of the main differences between "animals" and humans: we can put words on our feelings, and therefore we KNOW what they are.

No, your metaphor still isn't accurate. The proof by contradiction doesn't work here because happy and sad are not the only two feelings people experience. You cannot say, "I am not sad, ergo I am happy." All you know is that you aren't sad, you could be angry, annoyed, content, ecstatic, etc. You can't lump all emotion into two favorable and unfavorable categories. I still purport that someone who has never felt sad would know happiness when they felt it. Knowing depression is not a prerequisite to understanding your own happiness.

What I know is that some individuals may be biologically predisposed to depression, that it can be internally caused or related to outside events (Major loss or any major changes in one's environment)

So you're arguing a nature/nurture combination leading to a higher probability of depression? It still doesn't sit right with me to think that depression is genetic, because that would make me think that it would have been selected out already. This still doesn't address my question as to why we have the ability to feel depressed at all, regardless of the negative stimuli.

Perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way. I'm beginning to think that depression might be a feeling that is suffered through, but learned from. Anyone who has been heartbroken can attest to this. That although you went through a horrible period, you became a better person from the experience. This still leaves the question of depression that seems to come on without a cause, which beyond Tokzic's explanation that it's simply a natural side-effect of increased mental capacity, no one has really addressed.

oh, and...

Meh, I wish I spoke English fluently!!!

C’est rien. J’ai oublié le plus de mes français. T’écris le langue anglais trés bon.


EDIT: I wanted to say something about this too:

i disagree, i think depression makes people creative. perhaps you've only encountered emo poems by teenagers.

There is something to be said that in many cases, depression makes people avoid social contact, thus leaving their time for more creative pursuits. However, most poetry written in this state is garbage, mainly because they come off as whiny and cliche. I've written one poem I'm proud of while very depressed, but I'm capable of writing better and about more interesting topics when I'm not depressed.
Shameless plugs:
Depressed poem
Non-depressed poem

[Ozie-Saf]

Re: Depression.

Depression IS a disease (not all diseases are brought on by a virus or a bacteria: Parkinson, Alzheimer....both imply a disfunctionment in your brain, exactly like a depression!!!). And yes I believe it's some form of natural selection, like any other disease. It's not morbid, it's how it works on our planet, even though thanks to science we're not affected by it as much as wild animals. I google'd this and thought you might want to read it : http://www.studentdepression.org/sit...on_biology.php and http://health.howstuffworks.com/unde...ession-ga2.htm. It's quite interesting, and at least I don't have to translate all those complicated words and put them in an even more complicated sentence rofl.

About your question about why we have the ability to feel depressed, well, read above lol. And I also think that since humans evolved, it's quite natural that diseases (all kind of diseases) evolved as well, even though depression is probably an old disease that we didn't know about before.

(This is off-topic: say you meet a guy who has some problem with his hormones and therefore feels happy all the time (lol), how can he know he's happy? He can't compare his feelings with anything else. You can't know/analyze something if there's nothing you can compare it with.)

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

I'm not trying to say that depression isn't real or anything. I said it isn't brought into our bodies from an outside source. It's a completely inborn response to certain (presumably negative) stimuli; meaning that depression is a problem that has not been weeded out by natural selection. I suppose you could compare it to Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. After all, I said in my original post that I was curious about all mental deficiencies. Depression was just an example.

To address your example, a man who was happy all the time would be able to identify what he feels as happy based on the definition of happiness. The proof is not in the comparison but in the feeling itself. However, I can already tell that this answer will not suffice for you, and it does bring up off-topic philosophical questions ("Can someone who is color blind ever understand what it is to see 'red?'"), so I'll put it in a different way. Your example really doesn't make the correct point. Here your happy man cannot compare the feeling he is experiencing to anything. This is different from being unable to feel sadness. Imagine instead a man who can experience every human emotion but sadness. Even if you take all disagreeable emotions and lump them together as sadness, and all favorable emotions and lump them together as happiness, there are still indifferent emotions that he could compare happiness to. If for you the only way to know you're happy is if it's not something else, he'd be able to compare it to one of those indifferent emotions.

[Ozie-Saf]

Re: Depression.

I just don't get how depression couldn't be part of the natural selection. Just because you weren't eaten or died because you broke your leg, if you're too depressed to eat, move, live, you die the same!

I wish I could keep talking about the "feelings" part, but firstly it's off-topic, and secondly I lack the vocabulary needed (and I am NOT spending another 30 minutes translating/google-ing every single sentence/word to make sure it makes sense lol).

[devonin]

Re: Depression.

I just don't get how depression couldn't be part of the natural selection. Just because you weren't eaten or died because you broke your leg, if you're too depressed to eat, move, live, you die the same!

Natural selection doesn't only select positive traits, and doesn't get rid of traits that are no longer applicable.

We have all kinds of things that we developed for some use at a previous era of human evolution that pretty much serve no function now, but since they don't necessarily serve an abjectly negative function, we haven't selected them out.

[All_That_Chaz]

Re: Depression.

What possible purpose could the ability to become depressed serve, in any time?

[devonin]

Re: Depression.

What possible purpose could the ability to become depressed serve, in any time?

Did you read what I said?

"Natural selection doesn't only select positive traits"

Evolution isn't a magic bullet, it doesn't have a 100% success rate in only selecting positive traits and discarding all negative traits. If the abilty of brain chemistry to react in a way that could cause depression didn't severely impact the ability of depressed things to breed, there's no reason to assume that such a particular of ability of brain chemistry to react in that way would magically evolve out.

Further, if the ability to be depressed is a necessary consequence of say...sentience, then it is -absolutely- worth taking depression in exchange. Every trait doesn't exist in a sole vacuum, to be singly taken or not. Many things come together in a suite of things that evolved together, and were accepted together as being of overall benefit to survival.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Depression.

You assume depression has a purpose, or that it evolved to serve some purpose. Perhaps depression is merely a neurological/psychological defect that, because of it's relatively benign nature (in terms of survival), has failed to evaporate from the gene pool.