Being saved

[Wlfwnd91]

So, I'm just wondering, and I'm not trying to attack any religion or anything like that, this is just something I've wondered for a few months now and I figure the CT forum would be a good place to get some more open-minded points of view.. so here it goes.

This is from a sect's point of view that does not believe in purgatory keep in mind. Just heaven and hell

So, if you've never heard of God or of Christianity and you die, then do you still go to heaven if you were a relatively good person? If you go to Hell simply because you didn't worship God, but you still did your part in playing a positive role in society, wouldn't that seem cruel and heartless?

Or, if you haven't heard about God and in which case he says "Well, they never had the opportunity to hear of my word, and they were good people, I'll let em in." then...why do Christians continue to be so insistent on spreading the word? Isn't that like inviting people to Hell?

What is your guys's take on this? Cause in the bible it states that it is not by acts of righteousness by which we are saved, but by the grace of God. So, do our acts hold no sway at all? Especially if you were never "enlightened with the word of God"?

(tired, if any of this confuses anyone ask questions and I can answer them, it's not that I don't know how to word what I'm saying, it's just that I'm very tired at the moment)

So basically, do our acts mean anything? If not, then why do we bother, and if so, then why is worshipping an all knowing, all powerful, all loving being so important?

[devonin]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

Depending on which sections of which bibles you read, the emphasis is sometimes on good works, and sometimes on good hearts.

The whole "having heard of God / having not heard of God" issue is an interesting one...

Depending (as usual) on the religious person you ask, those who are ignorant of the Word of God but who have been living a life pleasing to God can still be saved, on a sort of "They -were- a christian they just didn't know the name for it" kind of grounds.

I imagine the argument for missionary work is something like "People who are living well will be going to heaven regardless, people who are -not- living well are currently risking damnation. By spreading the word of God to the masses, those who are living that life already will be heartened to know that it's the correct one, and people who aren't will at least have the chance to see their error and repent"

It really does come down to sect and branch of christianity. Roman Catholics (At least, the very fundamental and devout ones) will tell you that all the jews who died before Christ have been in purgatory, and were ushered into the Kingdom of Heaven by Christ's death and ressurection, but that any currently practicing jew, who knows about christianity but doesn't accept Christ as the coming of their promised King, is just straight up damned to hell.

They make an exception for infants, even though they are born with original sin, because they hadn't had a chance to repent yet and so on and so on.

I guess the basic way to describe it would go:
"A christian living the life" = heaven
"A christian living in sin" = hell, worse bits of hell depending on the sin
"Someone who doesn't know about christianity, living the life" = heaven (In pergatorial sects, usually this is purgatory then heaven)
"Someone who doesn't know about christianity, living in sin" = hell, but not one of the -really- bad circles of hell, I'm pretty sure Dante put the ignorant into circle 1

So from the point of view of any of the purgatorial sects, missionary work is very useful because those who are living well but aren't true Christians can avoid purgatory and ascend directly to heaven when they die, and the sinners (who are damned regardless) get a chance to repent, which is good.

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

Yea, I figured purgatory would come into it somewhere without really being able to be avoided, but that's alright, it's still good to kinda look at it. I guess the problem that I see with the whole thing is, even if people living a Christian lifestyle, but aren't Christians and will remain un-Christian even after hearing about the word of God but still live the lifestyle would go to hell based on the teachings of Jesus.. But, as you said there's parts in the bible that emphasize good deeds as well...

That damned book is confusing lol

[devonin]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

I guess the problem that I see with the whole thing is, even if people living a Christian lifestyle, but aren't Christians and will remain un-Christian even after hearing about the word of God but still live the lifestyle would go to hell based on the teachings of Jesus..

Well to go alongside that, I make the point that in no way shape or form did Jesus ever say a) Judaism is bad/wrong, b) Make a new church based on me, or c) If you make a church based on me, people who don't follow are damned. The closest you can get is Jesus telling Peter that he shall be the rock on which Jesus shall build [his] church. Butin that context "church" could mean many things -other- than "A new religion entirely"

Pretty much all of that was added in as rules later on by the christian church largely under Constantine when it became the state religion of the empire (Constantine himself, as an aside, remained the high-priest of a sun-god worshipping cult despite declaring christianity to be the correct faith)

I really do believe that if you -are- going to believe the teachings of Jesus (As nominally all Christians should) then living a good life, trying your best, and being kind to your fellow man is plenty good to get into heaven no matter -what- you call yourself.

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

I really do believe that if you -are- going to believe the teachings of Jesus (As nominally all Christians should) then living a good life, trying your best, and being kind to your fellow man is plenty good to get into heaven no matter -what- you call yourself.

I believe so too. I believe that if God is all loving then if you show compassion and good will towards your fellow man and follow the teachings even if you don't believe in the Christian God or follow Jesus directly then you'll be allowed into Heaven. The hard part is convincing Christians of that.

[devonin]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

Were I in charge of deciding who did or did not get into heaven, I'd even be more inclined to favour people who questioned their faith, really asked themselves some hard questions about religion, and the rightness of their lives, even if that meant sinning and breaking some rules over someone who just blindly did as they were told with no independant thought at all.

Seems to me that a God who's "big thing" was giving us free will might appreciate if we used it a little.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

Roman Catholics (At least, the very fundamental and devout ones) will tell you that all the jews who died before Christ have been in purgatory, and were ushered into the Kingdom of Heaven by Christ's death and ressurection,

Technically, it wasn't Purgatory. They were still in a holding area much like it (limbus patrum), but Purgatory was closed to all until Christ's death, due to Adam's sin.

but that any currently practicing jew, who knows about christianity but doesn't accept Christ as the coming of their promised King, is just straight up damned to hell.

Yeah, I'm not so sure about that. You might be confusing us with Southern Baptists, who don't seem to be as forgiving.

They make an exception for infants, even though they are born with original sin, because they hadn't had a chance to repent yet and so on and so on.

This is true. Also, though I didn't see it explicitly, I do believe a similar fate might lie ahead for those who were never exposed to God's word. Such people have not sinned, so Purgatory might actually be their destination, but I'm not entirely sure.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

As I said though, it depends entirely on which sect of christianity you're looking at, and also how hardline the individual christian in that sect you're asking is. I was myself raised Roman Catholic and have spoken at length with Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants et al, and it's really baffling how splinter groups whose original schism revolved around some one or two minor facets of interpretation have, since their inception, changed their outlook on a lot of things.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved

As I said though, it depends entirely on which sect of christianity you're looking at, and also how hardline the individual christian in that sect you're asking is.

The thing about Catholicism, though, is that there aren't any sects within it. There is one Chruch with one set of beliefs; no Catholic parish can legitimately be more "hardline" than another.

Yeah, if you're looking at Baptists with respect to Catholics or something, I can understand why you said what you did, but I was just answering for Catholicism there.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

no Catholic parish can legitimately be more "hardline" than another.

I said individual christian for a reason :P I've met a -very- wide range of catholics, from the very liberal to the very conservative and hardline.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved

D'oh! I missed the "in the" part, so I read "individual christian sect".

Disregard, then.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved

I read through the entire book of Ecclesiastes many times, it's one of my favorite books of the bible, why? Because it wasn't written by God. It was written by "The Teacher" or "The Wise One" as known in some translations. It's commonly believed to have been King Soloman who wrote it, but there's nothing to prove this in any way. The book of Ecclesiastes was questions and rantings of The Teacher in other words. To say that the entire bible is the word of God is very innaccurate. God may have told The Teacher to put his writings into the bible, but it is not the voice of God in that book. There are many places that state that whomsoever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. So possibly the sinful are condemned to non-existence while those who followed his word are rewarded with eternal paradise? Maybe non-existence is the worst kind of torment? There are many ways the bible's heaven and hell can be interpreted.

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

I'll also point out than in some translations of the bible, the book of Ecclesiastes begins "Life is useless, it is all useless" compares life to "chasing the wind" and basically says that there's no point in bothering to work for anything, because when you die, you lose it all, and people who didn't work for it inherit what you created. Taken at all cynically it's a pretty scathing condemnation of the human condition.

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved

Exactly. In some versions it's "Vanity, vanity, everything is vanity." and in others it's what you said, but that's unimportant, it all means basically the same thing. Basically, it's a very interesting book of the bible, however you can't really use it as God's word.

[slipstrike0159]

Re: Being saved (Caution: RELIGION)

Well to go alongside that, I make the point that in no way shape or form did Jesus ever say a) Judaism is bad/wrong, b) Make a new church based on me, or c) If you make a church based on me, people who don't follow are damned. The closest you can get is Jesus telling Peter that he shall be the rock on which Jesus shall build [his] church. Butin that context "church" could mean many things -other- than "A new religion entirely"

First off, i dont think Jesus would EVER tell anyone to make a church after him because the main reason he was chosen over lucifer to come to the earth is because he wanted to give all glory to God instead of himself. So, if anything he would tell the people to make a church for God (which is what almost all churches claim anyway =\).

As for the idea of Heaven and Hell, you would find a lot of interest in the mormon plan of salvation. Basically what it describes is that after you die you will be separated into one of two places being "spirit paradise" and "spirit prison" which can be interpreted by others as heaven and hell. Although, in the mormon standpoint there is a HUGE difference in opinion of spirit prison. The basic concept is that the people who followed faithfully and have a testimony in Christ will be sent to spirit paradise and they will "go on missions" so to say to the people in spirit prison to give them an opportunity to learn the true gospel if they havent already (or give them a second chance). However, the people in spirit prison are still able to exercise free will and decline the gospel.

The interesting thing about this plan of salvation is that it continues beyond that. It describes that when the second coming takes place the righteous will live on earth to rein with Christ for the millenium and after is when the final judgement takes place. From there you are judged by God for all of your worldly deeds and placed in one of three kingdoms of glory.

To break it down simply the highest kingdom of glory is called the "Celestial Kingdom" which glory represents "the brightness of the sun". This kingdom is also broken into 3 parts within itself but that is more complicated than needs to be discussed. Then comes the kingdom of glory known as the "Terrestrial Kingdom" which glory represents "the brightness of the moon". At the bottom of the kingdoms is the "Telestial (sp) Kingdom" which glory represents the "brightness of the stars". This is basically where murderers, adulterers and other such serious sinners go. However, it is said that when Joseph was shown all of these kingdoms in a vision he described the Telestial Kingdom as being similar to earth but it is so magnificent that if someone saw how great it would be to be there then they would simply kill themselves to attain it.

Out side of this is outer darkness and the only real people who can be sent here are the people who commit the most condemning of sins. This is the sin against the holy ghost. Its conditions are almost impossible for a man to meet. They include having literal encounters with angels, Jesus, or God himself, knowing in their hearts that what they speak is true while having a testimony of the gospel and still rejecting it. Not only do you need to just reject the gospel and everything you knew to be true, but you would basically have to fight against the church. I've heard that Satan's followers that did not receive an earthly body dwell in outer darkness.

The plan also talks about before birth but that is not part of this discussion. Also, i could be mistaken about a few of the things but to the best of my knowledge this is what the plan covers. If you want a idea of it then go to lds.org or just ask me to draw it up with labels and ill post it later.