Being saved

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved

And as for "Hell"

Many believe that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever. Is this teaching logical? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone perpetrated extreme wickedness for his whole lifetime, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the limited number of sins that he can commit in a lifetime.

Talk to God about that; he's the one who set those punishments down. It's entirely just to eternally punish someone for their sins if you tell them beforehand that they're going to be eternally punished if they're bad.

You may think that it's unjust to set those punishments down beforehand, but hey, I'm not going to question God.

Who knows the truth about what happens after we die? Only God can reveal this information, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. Here is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell. Humans return to dust—to nonexistence—when they die.

In order to be tormented, an individual has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? No. “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience the agonies of hellfire.

For someone who seems to be somewhat well-versed in scripture, how have you completely disregarded the concept of one's soul? Does anybody really think that their body is the one that descends to hell? Nobody I know, that's for sure.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Lamoc]

Re: Being saved

I'm not religeous at all and can't stand most people that follow a religeon. But this is what I grasped over the years. One day my good friend was reading some passages of the bible to me. I honestly don't care about the bible but it makes me feel better when I hear him talk. Anyways, one of the passages realy caught my eye. Well ear. It talked about once being baptized all of your sins are forgiven. Now wait a minute. Does that mean you can go on complete rampages and pillage towns and kill the innocent and then on your death bed be baptized and all those sins are forgiven? My friend said in theroy that is correct but imoral. Since I seen some talk of sinning and stuff I thought I would bring that up.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved

I've had several Catholic/Protestant discussions on this before.

From what many have told me all you have to do is, "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" and you can go to Heaven (some even require that you say it out loud; just accepting him in your mind isn't enough). Catholics believe, though, that you also have to be a good person and do good works to earn a spot in Heaven.

When I would ask them what would happen if Charles Manson accepted Jesus on his deathbed, some said that he could go to heaven while others said that he would have to be truly repentant.

When I asked if someone could accept Jesus and then go out and commit horrible atrocities, the only answer I can remember is, "well, if he really accepted Christ he wouldn't go out and do those things."

So, according to some Christians, that's basically all you have to do, but to others, you can't be a total asshole and take Christ's death for granted.

Now, regarding the "once being baptized all of your sins are forgiven"... We Catholics believe that all humans are born with "original sin" thanks to Adam and Eve. Baptism removes this sin so that the child (or adult, but usually the child) can start fresh and have a clean life. So, baptism removes all that original sin, but it won't by any means, forgive any sin committed after that. Confession and penance is there for those sins.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Lamoc]

Re: Being saved

Thats intresting. But you can be baptized more than once though right?

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Being saved

No religion to my knowledge says that you can. Baptism has a very specific purpose, and once it's done, it's done. There's no need to do it again for one...

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved

There are some places that will baptize you more than once, but it's more of a comfort thing to the person being baptized. As Guido said, it's to get rid of the Original Sin which we are all born with because of Adam and Eve and doesn't really count for anything after that.

However, Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, and the bible does state that if you truly repent with all your heart and give yourself over to the lord then all of your sins shall be forgiven, and technically if you do truly accept Jesus and his teachings then you won't go out murdering people, and if you did go out murdering people and were truly sorry and asked the Lord for forgiveness then it's said that he would forgive you (If I recall though, I believe Slipstrike said this didn't apply to the mormon sect of Christianity? If you stop by Slip could you give another view on that from your area of expertise?) But, that is what the bible states. There's a lot of different scenarios that can take place.

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

And as to saying that the book of Ecclesiastes that you claim is not divinely inspired...I direct you to

2Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God, Beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness.

-5 points, petitio principii. Care to try again without circular logic?

[brothaice]

Re: Being saved

Ok, I only read the first post, but I am going to post my opinion on this.

You are correct; there are Christians, like myself, who only believe in Heaven and Hell. Well, from what i was taught, only those who follow the word of Jesus Christ will be admitted into Heaven. All others, who don't, will be sent to Hell. I once asked my Pastor if unborn babies and newborn ones will go to Heaven or Hell if they die before they become baptized. He told me that, unfortunately, they would be condemned to Hell. This is a said, but according to the Bible, true fact. On your other point, I believe you basically asked, "Do your actions have anything to do with you getting into Heaven?" Then, the answer would in short be no. As long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ as the savior, then they will be admitted into Heaven. In the Bible, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, therefore, already paying for them for us in advance. If he wouldn't have died for us, then we would all go to hell because no one can follow all of the ten commandments perfectly, no one, except for, of course, Jesus. This is why we now follow the new testiment, after the death of Jesus, and in the Christian religion, we are just to try to follow the commandments as best we can, because it is known, like i said, that no one except Jesus can follow them perfectly.

As I said before, I am of the Lutheran religion. I attended confermation for 2 years, and have been confirmed, so I do know a little bit about my religion. I am not going to pretend to know everything about other religions such as Catholicism, who do in fact, believe in purgatory. So I honestly dont know their point of view on the matter.

Again, I only read the first post, so I appologize for anything that I said that has already been stated.

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

How about, its called using the Bible to answer questions stemming from the Bible?

How about it's called begging the question, because your proof that the bible is valid is contained within the bible. As evidence, content in the bible is only valid if we've -already- concluded that the bible is valid.

You can't prove something by appealing to its own claims of being proven.

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Being saved

How about it's called begging the question, because your proof that the bible is valid is contained within the bible. As evidence, content in the bible is only valid if we've -already- concluded that the bible is valid.

You can't prove something by appealing to its own claims of being proven.

It's a religious question and can't really be answered without using the bible, so we need to at least pretend that it's valid in this case. I just believe, however, that Ecclesiastes is not technically the word of God, however the memoirs and thoughts of "The Teacher" that God chose to include within the bible. However, to believe that the bible is 100% the word of God is pretty naive. Many missing books from the bible have been found throughout history that man has decided to ommit for whatever reasons.

[tsugomaru]

Re: Being saved

I remember saying a relevant quote. It went something along the lines of:

Eskimo: If I didn't know about God, would I go to hell?
Christian Priest: No, you didn't know about the Gods or sins, you would not have went to hell.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

~Tsugomaru

[scottishmeatball]

Re: Being saved

???

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

It's a religious question and can't really be answered without using the bible, so we need to at least pretend that it's valid in this case.

If the only evidence you have of the bible's validity is that it says in the bible that the bible is valid, then by any reasonable standard of proof you actually have no proof whatsoever that the bible is valid.

You're welcome to believe it on faith all you like, in fact that's generally integral to being part of the religion, but you can't claim that you -know- the bible is valid with no valid evidence to support the claim.

[devonin]

Re: Being saved

There are a plethora of sources and examples that prove the Bible's validity, and if its validity is proven, that Means it is to be taken as the Divinely inspired word of God, if that is the case everything it says is accurate.

This is Just One example that shows the Bibles Authenticity and Prophetic Accuracy.

No, that's one example of historical records in the bible and historical records not in the bible matching actual historical events. That doesn't necessarily follow that therefore -ALL- of the bible is necessarily accurate OR that even if accurate, the words are divinely inspired.

I can write you a book, right now, that contains a -multitude- of correct statements about any number of topics, and also fill that exact same book with nonsense, lies and idiocy. Just because you can prove any number of things about it to be accurate does not mean it is -universally- accurate, and -definately- does not make it divinely inspired.

There appears to be some confusion going on at this stage of the thread as to "valid" and "true" and "factual" Within certain contexts, the bible is absolutely valid (Say, within the context of 'christian religious mythology') Since mythology inherantly contains some truth and some falsity, it us under a less strenuous burden of proof. This is why we can accept Homer's Odyssey as "valid" greek mythology, because it isn't pretending to be literal and factual truth.

But the context in which the validity of the bible is here being contested is that it is the literal and direct word of God. Even if every historical event described therein was proven to have happened, the best you can conclude from that is that the humans who physically wrote the bible were astute historians who did their research. I've yet to see any actual evidence presented that the Bible is the literal and direct word of God.

Let me ask you this: If everything the bible says is accurate and infallibly the direct word of God, do you submit to this forum that you follow every stricture and guideline, believe every statement of ethics and morality, and allow your life to be guided by each and every precept located therein?

[slipstrike0159]

Re: Being saved

“The doctrine that the human soul is immortal and will continue to exist after man’s death and the dissolution of his body is one of the cornerstones of Christian philosophy and theology.”—“NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.”

THE above-quoted reference work, however, admits that “the notion of the soul surviving after death is not readily discernible in the Bible.” What, then, does the Bible really teach about what happens to the soul at death?

The Dead Are Unconscious

The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, “he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.

So the dead are unconscious, inactive. When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, God stated: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life, Adam did not exist. When he died, Adam returned to that state. His punishment was death—not a transfer to another realm.

The Soul Can Die

When Adam died, what happened to his soul? Well, in the Bible the word “soul” often simply refers to a person. So when we say that Adam died, we are saying that the soul named Adam died. This might sound unusual to a person who believes in the immortality of the soul. However, the Bible states: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) Leviticus 21:1 speaks of “a deceased soul” (a “corpse,” Jerusalem Bible). And Nazirites were told not to come near “any dead soul” (“a dead body,” Lamsa).—Numbers 6:6.

A similar reference to the soul is found at 1 Kings 19:4. A severely distressed Elijah “began to ask that his soul might die.” Likewise, Jonah “kept asking that his soul might die, and he repeatedly said: ‘My dying off is better than my being alive.’” (Jonah 4:8) And Jesus used the phrase “to kill a soul,” which The Bible in Basic English renders “to put to death.” (Mark 3:4) So the death of the soul simply means the death of the person.


And as to saying that the book of Ecclesiastes that you claim is not divinely inspired...I direct you to

2Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God, Beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness.

It clearly says there ALL scripture, not the gospel and some of the psalms or any other arrangement..ALL.

If you believe in GOD (YHWH), then you believe that he created all things, the sun, the earth, Our incredibly complex body and so many countless wonderful an awesome things. If he made all of this don't you think he has the power to preserve his word through the ages?

Alright, well the "death of the soul" in my interpretation merely suggests losing the holy ghost. You gain the power of the holy ghost after baptism. It helps guide and direct you in a righteous manner but if you arent listening for it then you can easily ignore the holy ghost. Eventually if you continuously living unrighteously then the holy ghost will leave you basically meaning spiritual death.

About baptisms in general i would say that mormon belief is that if a child is killed before the age of 8 (the age at which you are baptized) then you will go directly to the celestial kingdom (refer to my last post).

Also, the "original sin" which is usually called the fall of adam or the sin of eve is different from my perspective. There is a religion i heard of that basically hates eve for committing the sin of eating from the forbidden fruit. However, God told adam that he shall not eat of the fruit UNTIL God told them it was ok because eating it will grant mortality which is what was intended all along. So the only reason it was a sin was because eve impatient and ate it before having permission to do so. It has also been said that if satan knew that tempting eve to take of the fruit would continue Gods plan then he would have simply let them stay in the garden where they could not reproduce. Finally, there are many accounts where Joseph Smith actually met Adams spirit which would prove that his spirit did live on.

In the mormon church you can get baptized twice if you get excommunicated and eventually go through the repentence processes to rejoin the church.

One more thing, i have been taught that Jesus died on the cross for our sins like you said but it only meant that now we could repent for it. Before this time many people (in order to repent) would have to sacrifice animals and now there is a much easier way. I'm not quite sure but i also think that even after the sacrifice could the people enter into the kingdom of heaven because only through the sacrifice of the son of God would you be able to come into heaven unblemished by sin.

Finally, it says that murder is almost unforgivable (if not entirely from what i remember). However, God looks into your heart at your intentions and because he is all knowing he will know if you had some kind of mental imbalance that caused it. People who suffer from these kinds of things are somewhat exempt (so to say) in the extreme cases because it says that the mentally handicapped will (just like the under 8 year old) be automatically accepted into the celestial kingdom. Now dont take this wrong because just because you think someone will be exempt doesnt mean they will given that it is up to God to pass judgment. Along those same lines though, suicide is very close to murder because you are still destroying a human life God created but one of my seminary teachers said that a lot of people that commmit suicide arent in their right mind and its possible that God would have leniency. However like i said, its up to him to decide.