The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

[GuidoHunter]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

I think for the purpose of this argument we can assume absolute morality (whether or not morality is absolute is a different discussion which might interest Kilga again...) if for no other reason because we're assuming the existence of God and adherence to a portion of Christian theology which clearly believes in absolute morality and that Satan is evil.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[The_Q]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

It's in like the very beginning of the Bible, for crying out loud.

Quote me that passage, would you? I would love to find it and never could.

While you're at it, find the rapture in there.

Q

[Laharl]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Judging from the title of the thread, I thought we were going to have a philosophical talk about Paradise Lost, which I am supposed to be finishing reading for class on Tuesday.

As to the original subject:

After reading Paradise Lost, it's given me some interesting views on the Devil. In the poem, Milton (the author) presents us with the scenario of Satan and his followers waking up in hell after being tossed there by God. Satan's downfall was his haughtiness, him thinking he could be above The Allmighty. The other devils talk about starting war with Heaven again, but Beelzebub, I believe it was, suggests they go and find out what this Earth thing is all about.

Basically, Satan wants to lead man to fall to spite God. Hell is the torment. Satan is not the inflicter of that torment, but he is the one that tries to lead people there.

In other words, go read what Stretchypanda said.

AND NOW ON TO SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT:

All you prepubecent wanna-be Aristotle tools should stop going along with the flow and discover belief on your own. I guarantee that 99% of people that posted, have posted, and ever will post that they do not believe in Heaven, Hell, God, the Devil, etc., have never honestly sought the truth.

Until you have read a major, or preferrably multiple major, texts of multiple religions, pondered, truly asked yourself if God exists or not, and sincerely prayed about it, you do not know. You can claim to know all you want. But you do not know. You are simply regurgitating the popular bull**** of today's society, that RELIGION is the root of all evil.

If religion is the root of all evil, why does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Catholic church donate more money to charities and relief efforts worldwide than any other organization world-wide?

[Specforces]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

I believe in the Devil, I like the Devil, we get along.

[this_n00b_rocks]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Give me a reason to believe the devil actually exists.

Have faith, and read the Bible.

[this_n00b_rocks]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Quote me that passage, would you? I would love to find it and never could.

While you're at it, find the rapture in there.

Q

It talks about Satan (or the Devil) in one of the very first chapters of Genesis, in the form of a serpent (a snake).

Cue deception!

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Cue temptation!

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Isn't Satan also called "The Deceiver"?

About rapture...

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel

By sealed, the angel speaking is talking about the Rapture.

And...

There is not such thing as evil, just a different points of views.

He is correct. Why do terrorists do whatever they do? We consider it evil, they consider it either brave or good.

[The_Q]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

n00b, as much as I love your response here I have got to say, I disagree, still. The Bible never explicitly said anything about the serpent being Satan himself. Nor does that explain my orginal (unspecified, but original) question of "where does it show the story of Lucifer and the creation of Hell?"

Also, I'd like to call into your question the Rapture. As I recall, it's a purely American concept that came about in the Great Awakening by John Winthrop. However, I could be mistaken. I'd just like proof that the thousand gross mentioned are really in reference to the Rapture.

Q

[stretchypanda]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

n00b, thanks for your help, but Q wants the quote where the Lucifer is cast out of Heaven, which I will not pretend I can provide, as I have no idea where my Bible is.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

I noticed you called the devil HE, how do you know its not a she.

Lucifer would be a really weird name for a girl.

(whether or not morality is absolute is a different discussion which might interest Kilga again...)

I have had discussions of morality at other websites since that happened last, as well as having thought privately on the subject. The quick answer, really, was that it has never been logically proven whether morals are absolute or relative (anyone familiar with the is-ought problem should be able to see why this is the case, and I'm rather disappointed in myself for not seeing it earlier), and as such debating them on the internet is a waste of time because odds are the two people involved don't know as much about philosophy as the multitudes of philosophers and mathematicians that have come before them.

Not being more than a relative novice in the field of philosophy, I decided to go with this, since it made sense intuitively to me and is easy to explain. Plus I don't have the credentials, energy or patience to attempt sufficiently deep analysis as to be on the same plane as Aristotle, Plato, Nietzsche and the like.

People are perfectly free to believe in either absolutism or relativism because neither side can prove the other wrong, as long as they recognize that no matter which side they choose they can't assume it to be true and use it as the basis of a logical argument, because their side has never been proven to be universally true in the first place. My personal code of ethics still dictates that morals are relative (which is strange because I am a Methodist and thus should probably be assuming the Christian moral teachings to be universal, although I guess this qualifies me as a Kierkegaardian existentialist), but I now know better than to assume that to be fact when debating morals.

But I digress. The important thing is that arguing ethics, morals or religion on the internet is exceeding stupid because everyone believes different things and internet-age people tend to get feisty when their deepest personal beliefs are questioned or otherwise attacked.

[the_unda_doggz]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Specforces knows what I am talking about. ^_^

[Hr2]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

I hate it when people say "there is no good or evil"

Yes there is, stop saying that, it pisses me off. It's a relative scale which is different in all of us, just because its different in all of us DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T EXIST.

The devil, in my opinion, is the biggest cop out of Christianity. God creates humans in his perfect image, but then, DEVIL COMES SUDDENLY, we're not perfect anymore. Makes sense right, since god is all powerful and can do anything, why doesn't he just slay the devil and say, hey humans, you're perfect again!

Because there is no god, and there is no devil, only humanity.

[TheRaiRaiEatsBalloons]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Because there is no god, and there is no devil, only humanity.

Win, thread over, etc.

This thread is ridiculously hilarious and I find anyone who has taken it seriously absurd.

UGH.

The Devil, Satan, Lucifer, whatever you choose to call him was not given the "job" of kicking sinners' asses for all eternity.

He rebelled against God and so God created the place of eternal damnation for Satan and his followers to suffer for all eternity. Satan does not do the punishing. The punishment IS being in hell forever.

It's in like the very beginning of the Bible, for crying out loud.

LOL

yes a loving and forgiving god would send people to be tortured for all eternity based on petty human decisions and ideals which are ingrained into their minds

good logic, makes sense

[Kilgamayan]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

Makes sense right, since god is all powerful and can do anything, why doesn't he just slay the devil and say, hey humans, you're perfect again!

This and basically all other "Why does/doesn't God do this or that" questions (like microwaving the burrito) are more or less invalid because the questions limit God to earthly concepts and understandings. They imply that because we can't morally or physically can't figure out why God does or doesn't do something, it must be a paradox that disproves religion, but God isn't limited to what humanity can conceptualize.

You may not like it and you may deem it another cop-out, but that's pretty much the blanket answer to any logical/ethical paradox you could present: your paradox isn't applicable to God.

chardish could probably explain it better than I though.

EDIT: Note that it works both ways. Saying evolution is a false theory and citing Adam and Eve as evidence is an equally invalid proof.

[The_Q]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

The devil, in my opinion, is the biggest cop out of Christianity. God creates humans in his perfect image, but then, DEVIL COMES SUDDENLY, we're not perfect anymore. Makes sense right, since god is all powerful and can do anything, why doesn't he just slay the devil and say, hey humans, you're perfect again!

Before I went atheist I did a lot of research and reading and studying on religion. I can promise you, people in the Church think about this a lot. The concept is called "The Dualistic Nature of God." If there is evil in the world, that means God is not all-loving or that there is another entity out there that has the powers of a deity. This implies that there is not just one God. Somebody made an uh-oh.

Q

[Hr2]

Re: The Devil (Evil or misunderstood?)

I agree with The Q