Christianity and Control

[flamingspinach]

Re: Christianity and Control

Yes, there are exceptions. Buuuuut, I wasn't really adressing Christians as much as I was adressing the basic structure of the religion itself. If you expect me to list every thing for every denomination, you expect too much. But srsly, is anyone going to acually try to debate it besides NS?

I certainly don't expect that, but when you say "the basic structure of the religion itself", I'm just pointing out that there is no universally accepted structure for the "religion" of Christianity. Basically Jesus said some stuff and then a bunch of people all had different ideas about how to handle it.

Christianity has been controlling man for centuries. As a matter of fact, christianity used to be the law, more or less. It was absolutely impossible to claim something as insane as the earth revolving around the sun without losing your life. And as it hasn't changed much, naturally many of the same techniques are still used, and they're still controlling. Look at the power of organised religion over the people and you will see it.

But guess what, things like that are just outdated now, just as christianity is becoming outdated. I dare to say its image of God is far too primitive. It just doesn't fit the picture anymore, people are starting to notice, and of course they don't like that. There's nothing wrong with a good message, but there's more to religion than just love and happiness.

First of all, only western society/culture has been dominated by Christianity for the last several centuries, not mankind as a whole. Also, keep in mind that the true teachings of almost all churches are not generally known well by your average churchgoer - like I said, before dismissing Christianity (at least Catholicism) as out of date, I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church - I'm not a Christian or even religious but it is surprisingly modern and informed, especially compared to the bundle of superstition that is the Bible (when taken literally).

[Squeek]

Re: Christianity and Control

Pay attention in church and you'll learn a few things about the religion you're all defending.

BACK IN THE DAY, religion was a means of huddling together and standing strong against the evil that lay before them, whatever that may be. People went to church because they feared the wrath the god of Christianity would bestow upon them if they did not, or feared the afterlife of eternal torture and pain. Either way, they put faith in the belief that showing faith for an omniscient and omnipresent nonhuman being meant they would be granted a pleasant afterlife.

Religion has changed whether you think it has or not. Religion used to be the center of everybody's life. There were no grudges about four-hour masses on weekdays and longer ones on weekends, because this was life.

Nowadays, the general message I get from going in a church has been one simple message:

"Give us more money to gather more members."

Every sermon, every homily, every summary of a mass I have heard has had this underlying theme to it. Ever notice that they pass around that collection basket two or three times now, instead of just that once? Oh, and about that basket. You sure feel bad not putting anything in it, eh? Part of that community thing. If someone in your neighborhood were sitting next to you and had put money in, then handed it to you and looked at 'ya, you'd feel mighty sullen if you didn't donate as well.

But then again, none of this matters. There's a schism in this world as to how people portray religion. You have die-hard religious people (very few). You have those who THINK they are die-hard religious people (very many). Then you have those who are not religious WHO NEED TO BE SAVED.

It is very rare that someone from one side of this schism should cross over into the other side. It's like a Democrat voting for a Republican or vice-versa. Not only will they not cross this line, they will not even glance at the other side. This is why religion is banned from discussing on Critical Thinking. It's a topic that very few can take objectively. Very few people can look at both sides of a religious debate, or can admit that what they have said is wrong. Proof of that is scattered everywhere in this thread.

For the record, I was a Catholic for 15 years and went to a Catholic school for five. Baptized, Confirmed, the works. Even went to a youth group during high school, and dropped the religion partly through that little escapade without telling anyone. I read a few books around that time that utterly convinced me of exactly what Grandia is trying to state. Changed my life, and I believe I am better for it. Few years later, my friend joined me in converting from Catholicism to nothing. Same reasons, same method.

I hereby proclaim right now that you can say anything you wish to say in reply to my statements, and I will surely read them, but I will not reply to them because this back-and-forth quote war is stupid and gets you absolutely nowhere.

~Squeek

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Christianity and Control

I hereby proclaim right now that you can say anything you wish to say in reply to my statements, and I will surely read them, but I will not reply to them because this back-and-forth quote war is stupid and gets you absolutely nowhere.

Then why not lock the thread? It's pretty obvious that no religion thread in CT will ever go anywhere just based on those who would be involved in discussing it.

[Grandiagod]

Re: Christianity and Control

Then why not lock the thread? It's pretty obvious that no religion thread in CT will ever go anywhere just based on those who would be involved in discussing it.

I am surprised that it has remained this civil so far, however, no one really seems to be debating it. Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence.

On a side note, I was raised Baptist and about age 14, actually started to question my faith and the rest is history.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Christianity and Control

Then why not lock the thread? It's pretty obvious that no religion thread in CT will ever go anywhere just based on those who would be involved in discussing it.

If anything, civil religion threads should stay open for educational purposes. I've seen a ton of bunk ideas or opinions formed on blatantly false information, so a thread like this can serve a means of at least showing each side where the other comes from.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[ComSec]

Re: Christianity and Control

The first of these I will call “The Belonging Technique”, or TBT.

TBT has been used by many modern day cults as well as Christianity. Basically it invokes a special feeling of “brotherhood” between the members of the religion. It helps Christians feel different and somewhat superior to the hedonistic “outside” world. It makes them feel as if they can fit in, as if they “belong”. (Hence the name of the technique.) In order to belong many Christians are willing to overlook the fallacies and the acts of other Christians. In this way Christianity becomes an almost exclusive club. A club where all others are doomed, and only Christians can be saved. Thus adding to the bond between Christians.

If you’re going to make an argument about Christianity, you should start by talking about something that is a specific issue to Christianity and not just a general trait of pretty much any group that exists. 'Belongingness' is not some horrible Christian technique, this is simple groupthink at its finest... Any group creates a sense of exclusivity to try to create a sense of belonging. Want an easy example? Look at inside jokes. Inside jokes are a method of creating belonging between a group of friends.

Also, since you said you are not going by the bible I would hope you wouldn’t make awful blanket statements like “A club where all others are doomed, and only Christians can be saved.” Find a group of different Christians, express yourself as a non-religious but spiritual person, and see how many tell you that you are going to hell. I actually had a high-school teacher run this experiment in one of my classes, about one-third to one-half of the Christians said that they thought he would go to hell.

If you are going to make blanket statements like this and then state that you can’t cite some source of Christianity like the bible to address points, I recommend that you just close this thread now… If you feel you can speak for the whole, you better find some source from which the whole unequivocally abides.

Ritual stuff

You act like this is the only place where this stuff exists. Have you even examined something like Islam or Judaism? Both of those are much, much more ritualistic than modern-day Christianity. There are even non-religious activities that are this heavily ritualistic, take many branches of martial arts for instance.

Because it answers some of the most eternal questions in a quick and easy manner. One of these question is the question of life after death, Heaven and Hell wrap that up quite nicely. Another is the meaning of life. Who can know the meaning of life unless one has previously lived? Also, Christians believe that they will transcend their bodies and enter an enlightened state. What better way to figure out the mysteries of the universe? However, if you are not a Christian, you will burn in a pit of fire for eternity. This scares up a very intimidating argument for Christianity. Join us, or burn in Hell. Now, that is probably the most blatant scare tactic to ever grace a pulpit.

Yes, it is common that religions create answers to unanswerable questions. The human mind itself is built to want to learn and adapt; to have something that cannot be answered burns and scares our minds. What is wrong with building something to placate that? Would you rather humans live in complete fear of death? That certainly sounds like a bigger fear tactic to me. Also, “Join us, or burn in Hell” is a very nice pathos-laden blanket statement. Once again, I’ll refer you to my point about generalizations I made earlier.

--------
Replies

But it also doesn't leave much of an option. Sure go ahead, worship those other Gods, see you in hell.

If you worship another God I doubt you believe in the Christian hell. And besides, true followers of Christianity should not be bothering you for not following their religion so you’re fine from getting attacked by this Christian hell too:

Matthew 6:5-8
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him

Yes, those proselytizing you are actually Christian hypocrites. After all, Christianity says that no man is perfect, they all have their faults…

Yeah, this is dumb, people are responding with Biblical quotes, like they are the truth. Instead of offering up edvidence they go "Well the Bible says" as if that's unrefutable fact.

What? The canonized Bible is the only basic source on which pretty much every sect of Christianity is built. What the Bible says definitely should be strongly adhered to. Also, I can already hear you searching for the Bible quotes that talk about bashing your intolerant son’s head with a rock and whatnot… You don’t need to waste your time. Some of the New Testament work denounces some of the draconian practices of the Old Testament, and the whole death of Christ itself frees up many of the more stubborn, archaic practices.

Christianity has been controlling man for centuries. As a matter of fact, christianity used to be the law, more or less. It was absolutely impossible to claim something as insane as the earth revolving around the sun without losing your life. And as it hasn't changed much, naturally many of the same techniques are still used, and they're still controlling. Look at the power of organised religion over the people and you will see it.

But guess what, things like that are just outdated now, just as christianity is becoming outdated. I dare to say its image of God is far too primitive. It just doesn't fit the picture anymore, people are starting to notice, and of course they don't like that. There's nothing wrong with a good message, but there's more to religion than just love and happiness.

I think you’ve said everything Grandia wants to say in a much more mature and lucid manner. Ultimately the teachings of Christianity come down to a moral compass: Christianity as it is put in practice is used as a tool to define a common moral compass for the people on which a society can exist. The reason that it is becoming obsolete is because our society is becoming more globalized, adaptive, and has simply expanded beyond the scope of what Christianity can encompass.

Furthermore, I would like to stress that there is absolutely nothing wrong with something that defines a moral compass. Creating a moral compass gives society common goals and beliefs which allow individuals to all work in the same direction. It makes society more homogeneous so that the gain for one person is more of a gain for all other people because a good for one person is seen as a good for another.

I am watching this closely... and can already see the lock.

Just a FYI... there really is no way to discuss religion without a "my god beat up your god" mentality, and that isn't acceptable. Turns into 1 person with 1 iron-fisted mindset vs another person with the opposite mindset. Then more join the cause on each side... and we have all out God War.

Actually that’s flat out not true, and I have personal experience to justify this assertion. I’d expect you of all people to be mature enough to not create a fissure like this post that pushes this thread in a bad direction.


TASS EDIT - Sup ap.

[KaTiEcHeN]

Christians

I am half a christian cause I done half the stuff christian will do and wont do. I found this post quitew ravishing but never had the time to finish reading it. Will someone give me a short version? Thank you

[iggymatrixcounter]

Re: Christianity and Control

To me, Christianity is a termed used generally to discribe more people than it actually is.

For instance: If Christianity is based on Bible principles, then anyone expressing and doing ANY of the grandigod's arguements aren't Christians themselves. Doing so violates many bible texts (won't quote them but they are there.) and therefore makes you no better than "those going to hell." Which doesn't make you a christian, obviously.

Grandigod does make good points, I liked Reach's points better but they say the same thing for the most part IMO. But they do apply to more things than just christianity. I mean you could apply some of those same arguements to the FFR community.

What you guys define as christianity....(caths, lutherans, bapt, meth, etc, etc) doesn't have the answers. The Bible has the answers, but lol at their failed attempt to apply/understand them. And now that society is smarter (in a scientific/technological sense) "christianity" doesn't have the answers to why things happen. But the Bible does....

[talisman]

Re: Christianity and Control

What is wrong with building something to placate that? Would you rather humans live in complete fear of death?

There's nothing morally objectionable to establishing a religion. Interesting that you use words like "building" that suggest that religion is a social construct, not based on a power which supercedes humans, and this is something I would definitely agree with but something that more religious people (by definition) couldn't accept.

The problem comes when, as always, the group with this constructed moral compass attempts to force dissenters away or convert them. Religion turns out to be, like so many other social contructs (race, class, ethnicity), to be an incredibly unifying force for those within the group and an even more divisive force for those in other groups.

And to address that quote directly... your second question doesn't necessarily logically follow from the first, as it assumes that without a moral compass, one lives in fear of death, or that with a moral compass, one does not live in fear of death. Reality is much more murky than that, as many who belong to religious institutions are still probably afraid of death, and many who don't are probably not afraid of death. Obviously there might be differences in the extent of fear, but without any data known offhand it's impossible to say if those differences would be significant.

Furthermore, I think those two questions obscure what the true "benefit" of religion is (that I discussed earlier and what this thread is all about). Yes, a good religion should provide answers to basic questions like "why am I here?" etc and can also provide guidance for how to live your life. But these are not the reasons people are religious. People are religious because being in a religion means that you belong to something, to a group. You are surrounded by people who share your beliefs, by people who will all protect each other from danger. It's the social feeling of belongingness that hooks people to religion.

Religion is inevitable. People will always find ways to group themselves together. It's evolutionary. If you're part of a group, you have more help when danger comes than if you're all by yourself.

So I kinda forgot where I was going with this post. but those are my thoughts... yeah.

[Grandiagod]

Re: Christianity and Control

If you’re going to make an argument about Christianity, you should start by talking about something that is a specific issue to Christianity and not just a general trait of pretty much any group that exists. 'Belongingness' is not some horrible Christian technique, this is simple groupthink at its finest... Any group creates a sense of exclusivity to try to create a sense of belonging. Want an easy example? Look at inside jokes. Inside jokes are a method of creating belonging between a group of friends.

It's part of Christianity, I can use the arguement even if it applies to other groups.

Also, since you said you are not going by the bible I would hope you wouldn’t make awful blanket statements like “A club where all others are doomed, and only Christians can be saved.” Find a group of different Christians, express yourself as a non-religious but spiritual person, and see how many tell you that you are going to hell. I actually had a high-school teacher run this experiment in one of my classes, about one-third to one-half of the Christians said that they thought he would go to hell.

Since when do high school social experiments count? I'm discussing doctrine and control techniques, not whether your high school class thinks I will go to hell.

If you are going to make blanket statements like this and then state that you can’t cite some source of Christianity like the bible to address points, I recommend that you just close this thread now… If you feel you can speak for the whole, you better find some source from which the whole unequivocally abides.

Did you read my response to this exact statement?

You act like this is the only place where this stuff exists. Have you even examined something like Islam or Judaism? Both of those are much, much more ritualistic than modern-day Christianity. There are even non-religious activities that are this heavily ritualistic, take many branches of martial arts for instance.

And this matters why? Just because Christianity isn't the only one doing it doesn't mean I can't bring it up, that's ridiculous.

Yes, it is common that religions create answers to unanswerable questions. The human mind itself is built to want to learn and adapt; to have something that cannot be answered burns and scares our minds. What is wrong with building something to placate that? Would you rather humans live in complete fear of death? That certainly sounds like a bigger fear tactic to me. Also, “Join us, or burn in Hell” is a very nice pathos-laden blanket statement. Once again, I’ll refer you to my point about generalizations I made earlier.

First of all, ingnorance for the sake of bliss is a bad thing. Second of all, it's not a generalization. Using the "Bible" (throwing that back at ya) you have to be a born again Christian to get to heaven, otherwise it's hell time.

If you worship another God I doubt you believe in the Christian hell. And besides, true followers of Christianity should not be bothering you for not following their religion so you’re fine from getting attacked by this Christian hell too:

Matthew 6:5-8
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him

Yes, those proselytizing you are actually Christian hypocrites. After all, Christianity says that no man is perfect, they all have their faults…

Sooooo, it's not so much what the Bible says as how the modern Christian is taught to believe. Pastors pray to the millions on television, churches all pray en masse. That's a fact.

What? The canonized Bible is the only basic source on which pretty much every sect of Christianity is built. What the Bible says definitely should be strongly adhered to. Also, I can already hear you searching for the Bible quotes that talk about bashing your intolerant son’s head with a rock and whatnot… You don’t need to waste your time. Some of the New Testament work denounces some of the draconian practices of the Old Testament, and the whole death of Christ itself frees up many of the more stubborn, archaic practices.

So only some parts of the Bible are to be believed?

I think you’ve said everything Grandia wants to say in a much more mature and lucid manner. Ultimately the teachings of Christianity come down to a moral compass: Christianity as it is put in practice is used as a tool to define a common moral compass for the people on which a society can exist. The reason that it is becoming obsolete is because our society is becoming more globalized, adaptive, and has simply expanded beyond the scope of what Christianity can encompass.

In it's purest form, yes. However Christianity has become much more than a moral compass.

Furthermore, I would like to stress that there is absolutely nothing wrong with something that defines a moral compass. Creating a moral compass gives society common goals and beliefs which allow individuals to all work in the same direction. It makes society more homogeneous so that the gain for one person is more of a gain for all other people because a good for one person is seen as a good for another.

Only if all the people believe in the same moral compass. Besides, unneeded morality can become restrictive.

[ComSec]

Re: Christianity and Control

It's part of Christianity, I can use the arguement even if it applies to other groups.

You're creating your argument like it is some special tenant of Christianity that makes it much, much worse... That is why I brought it up. Furthermore, I'm not telling you that it applies to any group, it applies to all groups. It is a completely instinctual human tendency.

Since when do high school social experiments count? I'm discussing doctrine and control techniques, not whether your high school class thinks I will go to hell.

And I'm presenting anecdotal evidence gathered from a pseudorandom cluster of Christians that reject a claim you presented. I'm trying to keep you from stepping into a fallacious reductio ad absurdium argument.

Did you read my response to this exact statement?

Yes and I rebutted it later. I'm glad to see you took time to digest the whole post before responding.

And this matters why? Just because Christianity isn't the only one doing it doesn't mean I can't bring it up, that's ridiculous.

I think it reveals some pathos-driven edge in your argument. You pigeonhole many traits that could be placed upon any religion or group onto just Christianity, and this shows an implicit disdain for Christianity precluding the validity your arguments.

First of all, ingnorance for the sake of bliss is a bad thing.

Proof beyond claim? I would actually argue otherwise but that is another issue entirely.

Second of all, it's not a generalization. Using the "Bible" (throwing that back at ya) you have to be a born again Christian to get to heaven, otherwise it's hell time.

Using your "The Bible isn't the arbiter of Christianity" proposition, many Christians believe that accepting Christ is not the only route to get into heaven.

Sooooo, it's not so much what the Bible says as how the modern Christian is taught to believe. Pastors pray to the millions on television, churches all pray en masse. That's a fact.

You have horribly misinterpreted the quote. It addresses proseltyzing other sects, not other Christians. Pastors praying to millions in television or in Church pray to an audience that chooses to listen.

So only some parts of the Bible are to be believed?

Yes, actually.

In it's purest form, yes. However Christianity has become much more than a moral compass.

Of course. Only a nihilist could accept a moral compass that is presented as only a moral compass. You have to wrap and dress it up for the general public to digest it

Only if all the people believe in the same moral compass. Besides, unneeded morality can become restrictive.

How so? In a homogeneous cluster, no morality can become unrestrictive.

[Grandiagod]

Re: Christianity and Control

You're creating your argument like it is some special tenant of Christianity that makes it much, much worse... That is why I brought it up. Furthermore, I'm not telling you that it applies to any group, it applies to all groups. It is a completely instinctual human tendency.

First of all, I know more about Christianity than other religions. Second, just because it is natural human nature does not excuse the blatant explotation of this nature.

And I'm presenting anecdotal evidence gathered from a pseudorandom cluster of Christians that reject a claim you presented. I'm trying to keep you from stepping into a fallacious reductio ad absurdium argument.

Ok, let's assume your test is correct, that is very encouraging to me. Why? I am talking about the indoctrination of Christians with this "control" Not it's effectiveness, however, two thirds go along with my theory.

I think it reveals some pathos-driven edge in your argument. You pigeonhole many traits that could be placed upon any religion or group onto just Christianity, and this shows an implicit disdain for Christianity precluding the validity your arguments.

Yes, I happen to dislike Christianity. That does not make my points any less valid. To suggest my opinions make my theories invalid is completely ridiculous.

Using your "The Bible isn't the arbiter of Christianity" proposition, many Christians believe that accepting Christ is not the only route to get into heaven.

Some do not belive it, but it is what it taught in the majority of denominations.

[qupte]You have horribly misinterpreted the quote. It addresses proseltyzing other sects, not other Christians. Pastors praying to millions in television or in Church pray to an audience that chooses to listen.[/quote]

Just because they choose to listen does not mean they are not being controlled.

Of course. Only a nihilist could accept a moral compass that is presented as only a moral compass. You have to wrap and dress it up for the general public to digest it

How about the athiest pillars of morality? A proven moral compass without any religious window dressing.

How so? In a homogeneous cluster, no morality can become unrestrictive.

Very few societies are homogenous.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: Christianity and Control

First... this is getting locked. It has gone on long enough.

Second (cause I like getting the last word)...

I know more about Christianity than other religions.

That is NOT an excuse to only focus on Christianity. Ap is trying to explain that what you are saying is NOT exclusive to Christianity, but you keep focusing only on it because it is what you know. It would be like me arguing with you about baseball but only discussing the past 10 years, because I know it a lot better.

Wow... I've used that baseball reference twice now. Hot.

PS - Sup ap, again. You now have company... Ridder copycat'd your hitler thing and got a 1 year ban from Synth.