Africa

[Tasselfoot]

Re: Africa

Have you ever taken a Macroeconimics course? Because your apparent knowledge of what GDP is is much different than it actually is. I won't bother going into it, since your only goal was to use big numbers to awe us into your ideas... only since you don't understand the numbers you are working with, you fail to realize how retarded you sound by speaking about them.

A much better figure to work off of would be the National Budget (aka, tax revenue the US works with each year). Through google, I found that the 2005 budget was ~800 billion. Well off your 12.5 trillion (even though you switched to billion halfway through your post... I'll assume you were still talking trillion). http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/tables.html

And, I also pointed out my personal feelings that our government should be working towards problems related to OUR country. Don't forget, the government's money comes from our taxes. Therefore, it should go to our problems. If we want to help out with foreign issues, we can donate to WHO, Red Cross, or whatever other charity you want.

[Trunkx3]

Re: Africa

Have you ever taken a Macroeconimics course? Because your apparent knowledge of what GDP is is much different than it actually is.

The answer is no, I have not. I apologize that my information was wrong, I must've taken the information from my Global Studies professor and an economics major the wrong way. For that I apologize but this still doesn't change the fact that we are the most powerful nation. I still believe that our prosperity does not need to be completely concentrated on our small population. Yes it is important that we take care of ourselves and concern ourselves with issues within the nation. But I believe that it is also important as the dominate nation, that we set a good model for other nations to follow. We need to start concerning ourselves as Global Citizens, and not limit ourselves to national boarders. I am fully aware that our government's money is derived from our taxes and I would like to see more of it go towards helping lesser fortunate countries. I realize that this is only my opinion and that there are many countering it. But its MY belief, If I think my government should be more concerned about global issues, then thats what I believe. To me, our governmnet appears as the stingy millionaire grandfather that won't lend you some money (or very little) telling others that the need to work for anything they want. (I know this is what Bill Gates is doing with his children, but that is a completely different story, its not a life or death situation for those kids).

...And, I also pointed out my personal feelings that our government should be working towards problems related to OUR country. Don't forget, the government's money comes from our taxes. Therefore, it should go to our problems...

And why is it that you don't consider a fellow human being on the other side of the world your problem? His pain and suffering is not as great as our own who are suffering? Lets assume in a couple centuries from now that all national boarder have dissolved and there is a united world government. Would you still feel that people in need over there were still second class human beings? That the don't deserve treatment before those who live closer to you? I know that my arguments have no effect on you because you've already decided how the world is, and I cannot change your views with words. Thats humanity. Most of us are greedy, self-centered, and incapable of adapting fast enough with the times. This will inevitably be the downfall of man, allowing another species to dominate this planet.

Oh and please refrain from tossing out insults "...you fail to realize how retarded you sound by speaking about them..." You could have said something more polite. You were trying to get me to argue with you with a more emotional tone, which I did not comply to. Try to make a case with a more logistical point of view and less of an emotional.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Africa

So if the tables were turned and Africa were the most powerful nation on earth. You'd prefer that they not assist us in our AIDS epidemic because it simply woudn't do anything? I know most people will think "its not like that so it doesn't matter." This response (or similar responses) is a completely selfish thought and a product of our selfish/uncaring American thought process. Let me ask you this. What have you EVER done in your life that has allowed you to live in the luxury which you live in. Other than being lucky there isn't anything else. You might argue that your fore fathers' hard work and dedication are the result of your comfort in life but is that any reason to horde all of the luxury? Its not Africa's fault that their people initially did not come up and expand on the same ideas that the Europeans did. The Africans lived a life of simplicity and were content with their lifestyle which had an emphasis on the tribe rather than personal gain (i.e. Capitalism). Its completely selfish to keep all of the bonuses and benefits that we've acquired through our fore fathers' hard work and determination.

And what right to my luxury do the African people have? None. I know that I'm damn lucky to grow up in America and have relatively affluent parents, too. Selfish, yeah, but in order to be a good Christian I'm supposed to give away everything I possess and live in dire poverty, helping others out. I'm not doing that, either. And if one single African expects everyone else in the entire world to compete for the Humanitarian of the Year award, well **** them.

You act as if it's so contemptible to possess things, yet you're spending some money on the internet you used to make that post instead of sending it to Africa. Is it any different for our government? Not really. There's no sense in throwing money into a lost cause (see aid to Central and South America). In fact, we already give them a lot of money, and it's probably done some good. Curing an entire continent of their problems, though? Don't be ridiculous. $185 billion wouldn't even do that.

And I laughed at the "Its not Africa's fault that their people initially did not come up and expand on the same ideas that the Europeans did" part, because while it isn't their fault, by this logic they have NO right to complain when their content life of simplicity turns into a AIDS-filled pit of genocide.

but I'd think if the U.S. dumped $186 billion into the AIDS research fund, there would be leaps of progress.

I HIGHLY doubt it. HIGHLY. I'm just shy of convinced that money is not the obstacle in eliminating the HIV, but rather the virus itself, which is incredibly hard to quarantine and isolate without wreaking havoc on the frail human body. Throwing money at people isn't going to make their brains work any harder. Now, when the cure is found, throw money at it to get it mass-produced and distributed.

Enough with numbers and National Products. Just think about how the United States would appear to you from the eyes of an African dying of AIDS. Here is a nation with the full capability of aiding your nation far beyond the aid it is recieving now. But they are worried about their own people...

Oh, PLEASE! Faulting someone for taking care of those in their immediate responsibility first? Again, **** any African who thinks the USA is bad for that. Hell, **** any American who thinks that.

Our government is very inefficient and our mindset is too self centered. There are reasons so many people around the world hate us. We're just too arrogant to realize it let alone do anything about it. Our general feelings of "Its not our responsibility" (which may or may not be true but its hardly humane) can easily result in the death of thousands if not millions of people.

Yeah, and while we're at it, let's send helmets to any and every Russian child who drives a go-cart. How about that Yuen Li of Shanghai with the strep throat? Send him antibiotics, for God's sake! A country's own citizens are its primary responsibility. For the most part, they should be its only responsibility and concern.

Just because someone CAN do something NEVER means that they HAVE TO, so enjoy all of your luxuries and niceties while you keep not solving Africa's problems.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[talisman]

Re: Africa

y know you might be full of **** here tass, not sure though. I'll try to find the budget from last year and see how much money our government allocated to Africa and the fight against AIDS to check. Might take a while.

In the meantime I think it's awfully dangerous to assume that the amount of money that is going to Africa for various purposes could be put to significant use in America on any of the issues you brought up. If you're speaking hypothetically about money in the future... meh. Not too much relevance then, I guess, but you have more arguing space.

On the subject of AIDS: I believe strongly that it is a virus worth fighting, and worth aiding Africa in order to conquer it. The former President of Botswana visited my college a few months ago and I went to hear him speak, and from what I gathered from him and other general sources is that many African nations could be quite economically powerful if they were able to capitalize on their resources more. Africa is particularly rich in diamonds (but that's a whole different story).

Why do I bring this up? We live in an era of globalization, and that's a trend that isn't going to go away. Any investment we make in Africa, even in the form of AIDS assistance, can't hurt for future and present economic relations. The US needs to have a presence in Africa for our economic and diplomatic interests, and I think AIDS assistance is a powerful bargaining card.

[talisman]

Re: Africa

Guido I wouldn't cast the argument that strongly. There's a time for self-interest and there's a time for selfless interest, and generally, as your relative wealth and power increases, so does your capacity for fulfilling the needs of others while also fulfilling your own.

Obviously personal issues are going to take precedence, but that doesn't mean that the issues of others should be ignored. If you have the power to help, why not do it? Sure you don't have to, but a choice made to serve one's own interests more than those of others should never be imposed as a doctrine or given as a justification to stop others from aiding those in need.

[Trunkx3]

Re: Africa

I'm not going to argue with you people about this anymore. You are so unwilling for any change and the idea of it frightens you into a panic of curse words and insults. I thought It'd be nice to bring forth an argument for the other side of the issue but you guys apparently can't handle an opposition. Since insults are now the fashion of arguments, I'll throw out my own. Poor little GUiardra, you are a glaring example of humanitie's inevitable end. I'm afraid that your intellectual inabilities will keep you from ever understanding what I was truely trying to say. Do you not understand? Now flame back with insults of my incompetence and disillusions about the world. I won't pose a rebuttal so dish out all you like. I won't give you the satisfaction of reply because you'd refuse to attempt to understand a thing i've typed.

I still fail to see where my general observations of global issues has personally insulted you. (And your critical thinking skills are poor. To be filled with curse words and anger... like a child... really.)

Have fun thinking!

[banditcom]

Re: Africa

All I know is that a former leader of the AIDS foundation in South Africa contracted AIDS by having unprotected sex with a woman he knew had AIDS but had believed he would be fine if he took a shower afterwards........

EDIT: Uhh Trunkx, just from a quick glance, you're the one throwing out insults. He was merely debating with you and now you're basically calling him stupid and backing out? Wow. Great job! Way to try to prove a point!! Seems you're the one disillusioned.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Africa

I'm not going to argue with you people about this anymore. You are so unwilling for any change and the idea of it frightens you into a panic of curse words and insults. I thought It'd be nice to bring forth an argument for the other side of the issue but you guys apparently can't handle an opposition. Since insults are now the fashion of arguments, I'll throw out my own. Poor little GUiardra, you are a glaring example of humanitie's inevitable end. I'm afraid that your intellectual inabilities will keep you from ever understanding what I was truely trying to say. Do you not understand? Now flame back with insults of my incompetence and disillusions about the world. I won't pose a rebuttal so dish out all you like. I won't give you the satisfaction of reply because you'd refuse to attempt to understand a thing i've typed.

I still fail to see where my general observations of global issues has personally insulted you. (And your critical thinking skills are poor. To be filled with curse words and anger... like a child... really.)

Have fun thinking!

Uhh.........what?

First, you expect us to change our opinions after your one post? You know, in order for me to change my ideas, you have to present a convincing argument, which it seems you did not do. How is "unwillingness to change" generally bad? Would you berate yourself for being unwilling to change if someone suggested that it would be good to slaughter your entire family?

Taking a moral high ground does not make your opinion necessarily right.

Second, yes, my well-constructed rebuttal of proper form and grammar was panic-ridden. And the swearing reduced the value of my opinions to that of a nine year old, right? They couldn't have been used only to emphasize my distaste for that idea or anything, no, that was just childish.

Third, can't handle opposition? Refer to the bolded statement above.

Ah, then you jump on one line that Tass wrote and blow it out of proportion saying that everyone here just uses insults, and that it's therefore okay to do the same. Please.

I don't mind if you don't reply because, as you claim our critical thinking skills to be poor, your debating skills are nil. Drop the "everything I think is 100% correct" ego complex and then get back to us. (But hey, if you still want to reply, people say they're going to stop and don't all the time, so don't feel like your pride is at stake)

I also wanted to comment on this (since you ninja'd my post, so I just now read it):

And why is it that you don't consider a fellow human being on the other side of the world your problem? His pain and suffering is not as great as our own who are suffering? Lets assume in a couple centuries from now that all national boarder have dissolved and there is a united world government. Would you still feel that people in need over there were still second class human beings? That the don't deserve treatment before those who live closer to you? I know that my arguments have no effect on you because you've already decided how the world is, and I cannot change your views with words. Thats humanity. Most of us are greedy, self-centered, and incapable of adapting fast enough with the times. This will inevitably be the downfall of man, allowing another species to dominate this planet.

Again, I'll refer to the brother idea. Of course one human's suffering is no greater than another's, but to an individual, that is not the case. I will care more about my brother dying than some African. I will care more about my friends' and family's plights than a Botswanan's. This applies to everyone, too. There's nothing about considering people you don't know to be second-class or anything, either. I will cry more for my brother's death than for Tarja Halonen's (Finnish president). You would, too.

Now, I'm not as bothered with the death of the ten year old girl in Oklahoma this weekend as I would be with my own cousin's death, and if Texas were able to do something for her that Oklahoma couldn't or wouldn't, I wouldn't expect anything to be done. However, as she and I are both Americans, the distance between us that prevented significant empathy from me is greatly reduced when compared to someone from a different country. It's only natural.

So, running with your idea of a united world government, the laws of that nation would dictate whether or not he deserves things. If everyone everywhere is equal, then yes, I would expect everything I get to also be offered to him. However, this is not the case, and as such, doesn't need to be considered.

@talisman: I'm neither suggesting that anyone else should desist in their aid to others nor that we should do nothing; some things can and should be done, but I think Trunkx's suggestions are way over the top.

And one more thing, Trunkx:

I know that my arguments have no effect on you because you've already decided how the world is, and I cannot change your views with words.

banditcom touched on it, but do you see the irony here? You come into this thread, state your point, and when someone posts against your ideas, you throw your hands up and leave, calling us unmovable. Now, if you realize this but don't see the problem, refer again to the bolded statement above.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[talisman]

Re: Africa

Guido what exactly is your position, beyond that people have varying degrees of priorities and concern for others as a function of themselves and of who the others might be? (I understand that you're speaking alot in rebuttal of trunk, but just trying to get your take on the topic itself).

More, less, or the same amount of governmental involvement in Africa?

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Africa

Well, my response to the OP was in my first reply, but I don't think that's exactly answering your question...

I'm not entirely sure how much we're giving to Africa and for what it's going, but if it's about what I'm assuming, then probably the same or a little less. I'm all for some help in curing AIDS, but I think we should just stay out of the genocide. We've got too much foreign involvement already, and while some is for the protection of the homeland and some is for economic investment, we have no connections or anything to gain from helping the Tutsi or the other group (H-something?). Plus, if we DO choose to support one side over the other, we'll necessarily be picking the wrong one and thus be subjected to further negative world opinion (not that that worries me too much, but there's no reason to lower it in this case).

If Africa can't learn to control its own problems then it'll never have hope as an independent entity.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[-Izzy-]

Re: Africa

I'm not going to argue with you people about this anymore. You are so unwilling for any change and the idea of it frightens you into a panic of curse words and insults. I thought It'd be nice to bring forth an argument for the other side of the issue but you guys apparently can't handle an opposition. Since insults are now the fashion of arguments, I'll throw out my own. Poor little GUiardra, you are a glaring example of humanitie's inevitable end. I'm afraid that your intellectual inabilities will keep you from ever understanding what I was truely trying to say. Do you not understand? Now flame back with insults of my incompetence and disillusions about the world. I won't pose a rebuttal so dish out all you like. I won't give you the satisfaction of reply because you'd refuse to attempt to understand a thing i've typed.

I still fail to see where my general observations of global issues has personally insulted you. (And your critical thinking skills are poor. To be filled with curse words and anger... like a child... really.)

Have fun thinking!

I know, they always do this and its very very anoying. It reminds me of when i tried posting on the peta forums and i talked about how i eat meat and they're like. holy **** you kill animals. I hate you and your family, and then they delete your posts. So they just sit there all day long agreeing with eachother.

[talisman]

Re: Africa

good job commenting on the topic.

ps finding digging through the budgets is a pain in the ass... so **** that.

[stretchypanda]

Re: Africa

Izzy, people's reaction to you and their reaction to Trunk are pretty incomparable. People generally don't disagree with you because you never present anything worth debating. They just yell at you because you can't argue.

Trunk, it's cool that you're all globally aware and everything, but Guido and Tass are right. We cannot help people an ocean away before we take care of our own messes. AIDS ravages the US just as it does in Africa. Poverty is overtaking our country. I live in a city with the most churches per capita, that also has one of the highest poverty rates in the country. How can I begin to feel concern for some poor souls in another country when right down the street men and women gather every Sunday for the one meal they may eat for days and a little fellowship?

It sounds selfish, but it isn't. When we are all able to stand on our own feet, we can help those around us stand up. Americans' first responsibility to Americans.

[talisman]

Re: Africa

Again, could the money being spent by our government on AIDS in africa actually do any significant good for dealing with any domestic issue like poverty or even AIDS here?

I don't know what that amount of money is, if it even exists, but my guess is that it's incredibly small, relative to the budget.

and I only mention gov't spending because no one really has much place telling someone else "you can't give that money to africa spend it on AIDS research here" since, well, individuals can do whatever they well want with their money.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Africa

Any amount of money is small relative to the budget. And with the way America gives money away, I'd imagine the amount of aid is in the nine figure range, which could do a tremendous amount of good if invested properly. Probably not enough to raise numbers across the country, but it doesn't take a lot to "do some good".

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com