Epicly pissed

[virus003]

Re: Epicly pissed

she'll think it was a choice, and then she'll send me to rude camp and i'll have to hang out with other rude people

and miss school

ps nfd almost no one cares about your gayness

[Grandiagod]

Re: Epicly pissed

i'm on nfd's side actually, I just hate him for being a furry

[Grandiagod]

Re: Epicly pissed

which is totally legitimate and not hypocritical

[Tokzic]

Re: Epicly pissed

If Dr. Spitzer encountered zero positive results in his study, he would have said that. But he didn't say that, did he? No, he said that in motivated patients, reorientation therapy was successful. Whether it's 1% or 2% or 99% doesn't matter.

lmfao

No. Actually, it matters a lot. If it was 99%, we could definitely say there is a correlation.

There is another sort of "reorientation therapy" out there. Alcoholics Anonymous tries to get people to control their alcohol addictions and get their lives back on track. And they too are successful in a small percentage of cases.

But there's one problem: The percentage of small cases is so small that it is the exact same as the spontaneous recovery rate - that is, you're equally likely to recover if you're in AA as you are if you weren't in AA. This puts into question whether AA has any positive effect on your chances of controlling an alcohol addiction.

As Squeek said in his earlier post, it is indeed possible for people's sexual orientation to change spontaneously. So if this unnamed percentage of cases is the same as the percentage of homosexuals who want to change their sexuality and do, then we have to question whether or not this therapy does anything whatsoever. Given that it's a biased organization and that they don't even list an exact rate of success in the study's findings, I'm going to go ahead and call bull**** on "reorientation therapy".

[Ground_Breaker]

Re: Epicly pissed

I'm going to go ahead and call bull**** on "reorientation therapy".

Fine.

Hypothetical:

You experience feelings of homosexuality that you feel are unnatural, but you want to be heterosexual. In other words, you find yourself checking out the other boys in the locker room even though you know that isn't what you're interested in. You are afraid to approach your family, and schoolmates are out of the question. After years of this, you become desperate for help. You want a professional to guide you to gaining the ability to sufficiently suppress your homosexual urges and live a heterosexual lifestyle.

If "reorientation therapy" is "bull****" and every organization is biased out of their minds, as everyone has been so eager to point out, what should I advise you to do?

Things that we've deemed off-limits throughout this thread:

- "Pray the Gay Away" camps (forcing it upon someone is wrong)
- Religious groups (not everyone believes the same religion/believes in religion at all)
- Family/friends (too afraid to approach)
- Professional "unbiased" psychological institutions (which Squeek has made quite clear that they believe it is impossible to change sexual orientation)
- "Biased" organizations dedicated to giving treatment to those who seek it, regardless of affiliation (which Tokzic has decided are bull****)

I think you're running out of options here, Mr. Confused. Are you going to just hope that you're in the 1-2% who spontaneously recover? Is there really absolutely no hope for you?

Or am I just missing the nihilism here? Am I overlooking everyone's fatalistic "no answer can be totally 100% correct and unbiased so I guess there is no answer" approach because I'm choosing to be optimistic? I'm trying to say that there are options available for people who want to make that decision, but apparently these options do not sit well with everyone.

If a person in that situation above seeks that kind of professional help, then what difference does it make whether the institution they go to is biased toward Christian values or anything else? Isn't this about civil rights? Don't these people also deserve the treatment they seek?

[Tokzic]

Re: Epicly pissed

I think you're running out of options here, Mr. Confused. Are you going to just hope that you're in the 1-2% who spontaneously recover? Is there really absolutely no hope for you?

you entirely missed and/or ignored my point

The point was that, regardless of whether or not you want professional help, if the statistics say so, your chances of successfully repressing your urges are the exact same with a professional or without one. That is, getting a professional is a waste of money. Reorientation therapy is a scam. I can't even see you arguing this, you're just saying WELL WHAT IF I REALLY WANT TO CHANGE MY SEXUALITY SHOULD I JUST GIVE UP which has nothing to do with the validity of reorientation therapy.

In any case, I believe - and science seems to show - that biological factors largely make up what you're aroused by but what you deem your sexuality does have some environmental factors in it. I don't think choice isn't a factor - I've seen several cases of guys who have had bad luck with women and then suddenly decide it's time to come out of the closet - but I think it makes up for such a minuscule portion of homosexuals that it's barely worth considering.

Whoever said "imagine being straight and then forced into being gay" is dead-on. Next time I see psycho-christians trying to stick their nose in business where they don't belong, I'll use that.

[Ground_Breaker]

Re: Epicly pissed

I didn't miss the point.

So if this unnamed percentage of cases is the same as the percentage of homosexuals who want to change their sexuality and do, then we have to question whether or not this therapy does anything whatsoever.

Means you think that professional help is unnecessary. I created the scenario as a way to put emphasis on the fact that, throughout the discussion, we've systematically eliminated nearly every possible option for someone in that scenario. Instead of vigorously defending organizations like NARTH, which I have no intention of ever doing, I'm saying, "Fine, if this is not an option either, then what else is there?" I'm taking your point and making the next step with it, instead of dwelling on it.

which has nothing to do with the validity of reorientation therapy.

I'm not arguing its validity, I'm saying look, it's there for people who need it. You're arguing its validity, saying that it's essentially a scam. Whether or not that's actually true I can't say, but my scenario is designed to ask, "Well, if it is a scam, then what are the other options?"

If, by mentioning the biological and environmental factors being potential variables, you're offering them as solutions, then we agree. Unfortunately, I still think even that can potentially be a breeding ground for further controversy, as some people will likely say that tampering with such factors isn't natural, or that we're interfering with nature, or what-have-you.

[Squeek]

Re: Epicly pissed

And what we're saying is "Why would you need it?"

We cannot see a good reason for anyone to actually need to change their sexual orientation. There's nothing wrong with being a homosexual, a heterosexual, or a bisexual. In fact, the only reason I can see is because it's oppressed by the religious right in our country who foolishly say it's immoral.

I understand wanting to not drink anymore if you're an alcoholic. I understand wanting to stop smoking, wanting to learn how to not be an aggressive driver, etc. etc. etc. I don't understand wanting to change who you are.

[Ground_Breaker]

Re: Epicly pissed

Well, I don't personally know why someone would need it, nor do I think there's anything wrong with _______-sexuality, but I don't think there's never been one person who has fit into that situation and has been unsure of where to turn. I'm more interested in helping those who seek help than saying, "First, we need to know why you need our help before we can help you."

If that never happens, if no one ever feels that way, then sure, none of this is needed at all. But if someone has ever felt that way or will ever feel that way, then I think it's a question that needs to be answered.

I agree about the oppression from the right, too, that's certainly true. It's a shame that some Christians are as zealous as they are about the issue, because it really reflects badly on decent Christians.

Lastly, and I'm not using this to support that gay people should necessarily do this or have to do this to belong, wanting to change who you are is something people do every day. Without going into a huge amount of detail on the subject, there are numerous cases where people in all kinds of relationships have made changes to their lifestyles, indeed, their very lives, to help bond with their significant other. It's quite common.

So, while I think we're agreeing now, for the most part, I'm just vexed about the inevitable dead-end someone might face in such a situation as I've described.

[kommisar[os]]

Re: Epicly pissed

what if he had sex with all the other gay dudes there would he get expelled????

[Grandiagod]

Re: Epicly pissed

Brilliant question sir, I shall forward it to the Admiral himself.

[xealix]

Re: Epicly pissed

Thats the perfect plan.

Edit: and there are no unwanted babies

[BigBoss37]

Re: Epicly pissed

oh kommisar, so awesome

[fido123]

Re: Epicly pissed

I'm not blindly saying "OH IT'S A CHOICE" and I'm not trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat. I see no benefit for you or me or anyone else by divulging more than just the surface of my beliefs for a few reasons:

1) This is chit-chat.
2) It never gets anywhere, because neither of us will ever be swayed.
3) It's not very interesting.

It says more about you than it does about me when I can't simply state my opinion without people like you, who needlessly defend themselves whenever they can, interjecting and saying, "WHOA WHOA WHOA WAIT JUST A MINUTE THERE BUD, YOU AREN'T EXACTLY EINSTEIN IF YOU DON'T THINK THE WAY I DO." This is just another of those silly issues on which people will most likely never agree, so I don't see how arguing about it will get anywhere.

On topic: The camps are still a stupid idea.

The only reason I'm stating it is because I know it's not a choice because if it was, I wouldn't be gay. I've tried really hard not to be. I beg of you to simply give me your reasoning on it. I'm not saying I'm smarter than you, I'm just saying I've been there and as far as I can tell you're wrong.


EDIT: sec

[NFD]

Re: Epicly pissed

I made the above user gay.

Seriously.