Snowden

[Izzy]

Re: Snowden

Don't even bother. No questioning government spending allowed.

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

Knowing in full detail is different from knowing that we spent x dollars funding insert-vague-project-description

i mean you can look up the budget if you want to know how much goes to NSA

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

Don't even bother. No questioning government spending allowed.

uhhhhhh

this happens all the time!

[Tps222]

Re: Snowden

I will never see eye to eye with Fojar on this.

Eric Snowden is a god damn hero.

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

Well yeah, you believe in privacy over all else.

Like how terrorists and people who associate with them should not be spied on, and that you would rather see another few 9/11 sized attacks.

(I am not being dramatic, this is what he has said in other threads)

[Nyokou]

Re: Snowden

Well gee, I wonder why the U.S. has so many problems with 'terrorists'. It could not possibly be because the government has stuck their noses into other countries' business for decades and tried to enforce their views on them, resulting in the deaths of innocent people, which in turn fuel their loved ones as well as extreme nationalists to enact revenge on the U.S. for hurting their people. And not because our government has also supplied them with the means and the weapons either which they in turn use against us when they are sick of our meddling.

They're obviously doing it cause they hate freedom!

And it's perfectly fine to infringe on the freedom of people living in America by violating their privacy. As long as it's for a good cause like fighting (self-inflicted) terrorism!

[devonin]

Re: Snowden

That sounds like something a terrorist would say.

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

Well gee, I wonder why the U.S. has so many problems with 'terrorists'. It could not possibly be because the government has stuck their noses into other countries' business for decades and tried to enforce their views on them, resulting in the deaths of innocent people, which in turn fuel their loved ones as well as extreme nationalists to enact revenge on the U.S. for hurting their people. And not because our government has also supplied them with the means and the weapons either which they in turn use against us when they are sick of our meddling.

They're obviously doing it cause they hate freedom!

And it's perfectly fine to infringe on the freedom of people living in America by violating their privacy. As long as it's for a good cause like fighting (self-inflicted) terrorism!

the first part, yeah all that stuff happened. that doesnt give people from those countries the right to kill american citizens.

as for the bolded section, you realize that this doesnt happen unless there's a warrant, right?

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

also terrorists in quotes???

how isolated from current events are you....

[Attractive]

Re: Snowden

fojar it is hard for me to believe that you actually believe in the things you post.



terrorist is just a word the government uses when any single person or group who is willing to use force opposes them and the ideals of their system. it is a buzz word and it has become a sort of justification for government violation of civil liberties. all the talk of terrorism is a fear tactic that the government uses on its citizens to make them feel that they need to be protected. if people are scared and feel as if there is a threat then they are more willing to give up their freedoms for the sake of "security". the government wants more terrorists because more terrorists means more excuses to attack foreign countries and eliminate citizens rights at home. if you know anything about the history of the cia's clandestine operations in the 20th century then you would know that it is safe to assume that the cia is currently involved in a lot of clandestine operations in other countries. i would not be surprised if it turned out that the cia was directly or indirectly responsible for much of the car bombings and other "terrorist" acts that are going on throughout the middle east. i would also not be surprised if the cia was responsible for some of the disappearances of journalists in syria and other countries. it would be in our governments best interest to create instability and chaos in the middle east as it would create a better opportunity for them to justify military involvement in the region.

the government is not always doing what it says it is doing and to think otherwise is foolish. i do not think that our government is looking out for the best interest of the citizens and i believe that anybody who exposes their wrongdoing is doing something good for humanity.

[Tps222]

Re: Snowden

Well yeah, you believe in privacy over all else.

Like how terrorists and people who associate with them should not be spied on, and that you would rather see another few 9/11 sized attacks.

(I am not being dramatic, this is what he has said in other threads)

I definitely have never posted anything like that, but I remember the conversation we had to which you are referring.

I'd rather take the chance of possibly enduring another extremely rare massive homeland attack* if it means that the ideals and liberties that this country were founded on remain intact.

Some of nyokou's points I agree with. We wouldn't need to have such a large system for spying in place if we weren't already expecting blowback from our previous incursions into other nations' business.

We started the fire, and then told everyone it's ok if they are constantly getting drenched by water because without that water we'd all burn down. This is just short-sighted.

Now, I realize that I'm coming off as naive and idealistic. I realize that the past has already happened, and that we need to find a practical way for dealing with our mistakes in the past.

I've moved from my staunch position of completely bashing programs like PRISM, which I believe can be utilized effectively when regulated properly. I still don't agree with certain programs(XKeycore, Tempora) but I understand the motive behind it.

Regardless, I'm well aware that the rest of the world most definitely engages in similar spying, even if the scope isn't the same as the US's; we need to make sure we remain on pace in that area. I'm just tired of the US creating such international hate and purposefully making US citizens feel as if they are constantly in danger. Attractive hit this on the head.

Fojar, you just don't seem to distrust your government in the slightest, and that completely baffles me. I wish I possessed your implicit trust and patriotism, but I do not.

*Note: Do not mistake my reliance on statistics of terrorist attacks as a lack of appreciation for human life and the horrible effects that come from foreign attacks. I just believe it's a self-inflicted wound coming back to bite us, and really isn't even our biggest concern as a nation.

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

fojar it is hard for me to believe that you actually believe in the things you post.



terrorist is just a word the government uses when any single person or group who is willing to use force opposes them and the ideals of their system. it is a buzz word and it has become a sort of justification for government violation of civil liberties. all the talk of terrorism is a fear tactic that the government uses on its citizens to make them feel that they need to be protected. if people are scared and feel as if there is a threat then they are more willing to give up their freedoms for the sake of "security". the government wants more terrorists because more terrorists means more excuses to attack foreign countries and eliminate citizens rights at home. if you know anything about the history of the cia's clandestine operations in the 20th century then you would know that it is safe to assume that the cia is currently involved in a lot of clandestine operations in other countries. i would not be surprised if it turned out that the cia was directly or indirectly responsible for much of the car bombings and other "terrorist" acts that are going on throughout the middle east. i would also not be surprised if the cia was responsible for some of the disappearances of journalists in syria and other countries. it would be in our governments best interest to create instability and chaos in the middle east as it would create a better opportunity for them to justify military involvement in the region.

the government is not always doing what it says it is doing and to think otherwise is foolish. i do not think that our government is looking out for the best interest of the citizens and i believe that anybody who exposes their wrongdoing is doing something good for humanity.

hooooooooly shit man better wear that tin foil helmet or the Grays might track you down and steal your precious bodily fluids.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Snowden

attractive confirmed actual conspiracy theorist

Also I think my views correspond the most with Tps222 at the top of this page.

[FoJaR]

Re: Snowden

I definitely have never posted anything like that, but I remember the conversation we had to which you are referring.

I'd rather take the chance of possibly enduring another extremely rare massive homeland attack* if it means that the ideals and liberties that this country were founded on remain intact.

no, in that thread you clearly said that you would rather they happen.

Some of nyokou's points I agree with. We wouldn't need to have such a large system for spying in place if we weren't already expecting blowback from our previous incursions into other nations' business.

We started the fire, and then told everyone it's ok if they are constantly getting drenched by water because without that water we'd all burn down. This is just short-sighted.

we may have started the fire, but your argument is that now that it's going, we should just let it burn. i personally would rather be wet (terrorists emails getting read?) than dead.

Now, I realize that I'm coming off as naive and idealistic. I realize that the past has already happened, and that we need to find a practical way for dealing with our mistakes in the past.

I've moved from my staunch position of completely bashing programs like PRISM, which I believe can be utilized effectively when regulated properly. I still don't agree with certain programs(XKeycore, Tempora) but I understand the motive behind it.

i cant speak for tempora, but you can read the statement the NSA put out about xkeyscore (there is oversight).

Regardless, I'm well aware that the rest of the world most definitely engages in similar spying, even if the scope isn't the same as the US's; we need to make sure we remain on pace in that area. I'm just tired of the US creating such international hate and purposefully making US citizens feel as if they are constantly in danger. Attractive hit this on the head.

if you think the government is stirring up shit to get us involved where we're not already, you're out of your mind. the government does not fabricate threats so that it can invade our privacy.

Fojar, you just don't seem to distrust your government in the slightest, and that completely baffles me. I wish I possessed your implicit trust and patriotism, but I do not.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH oh man. OH MAN. it's not patriotism in the slightest, it's practicality and cynicism. have you seen how effective our government is? do you watch the news??? there is no way the government has time, money, or the will to oversee things that are not crucial to national security.

big brother isn't some well put together cabal of bigwigs, it's a guy in a bathrobe who sits around getting high and masturbating all day, and is lucky if he can make it to the mailbox.

*Note: Do not mistake my reliance on statistics of terrorist attacks as a lack of appreciation for human life and the horrible effects that come from foreign attacks. I just believe it's a self-inflicted wound coming back to bite us, and really isn't even our biggest concern as a nation.

what you're neglecting is the after effects of terrorism. if we had prevented 9/11, i cant see any reason that we would be occupying Afghanistan right now, and presumably none of the deaths that have happened over there since as a result would have happened, and we also (most likely) would not have invaded Iraq.

the real danger are the idealists that are willing to sacrifice hundreds or thousands of lives to promote their ideals.

[Arkuski]

Re: Snowden

The funny thing is, if Attractive was telling you the same things a year ago that Snowden is releasing now, you'd still tell him he's a conspiratard.